Calling all programmers! New SEIV project needs you!

[disabled]

With a project like the one being proposed here, wouldn't there be an open source area where you could get something similar.

The changes you propose are major changes. Why not make your own game from it

[Baron Munchausen]

Hmm, I know there is a free/open source Civ clone out there but I can't think if there's a 4X game or not. There are 'free' space games out there which you might be able to get the source for to adapt to what you want to do. Galaxy is one, I think, but it's supposed to play mor elike Civ than the 4X genre.

You might want to go to SourceForge.net and search to see what sorts of projects they are carrying.

[cswiger]

Originally posted by capnq:
I can't seem to find the SE IV EULA, but depending on how it's worded, and if you live in a state that has passed the Uniform Computer Information Transactions Act (UCITA), reverse engineering the program may be illegal, as well.

Reverse engineering is a complicated topic, and the fact that the author encourages "mods" means that the interfaces represented by the public datafiles constitutes a public AI. Of course, Aaron owns the rights to both SEIV as a game, and the _data_ contained within those files, no questions about that, just as every individual mod author deserves credit for their own work.

In other words, writing a copy of the game and shipping the data files, images, or what have you from SE4 would not be okay. Aaron deserves to be paid for his work, and anyone changing SE4 should have paid for a copy. But it is okay to create changes to the data and ship those changes to other legitimate owners of the game-- that's what mods are, after all. :-)

Anyway, I haven't been wasting time-- I've been doing some coding myself. I need to clean it up and get my log4j stuff sane, but I'll try to put it on the web later today or tomorrow. Anyway, what I've written is a "universal SE4 data parser" which stores data in a LinkedHashMap for preserving item order, yet permits fast Queries.

It can also read data from several mods at once, keeping each "mod" or World seperate so that you can compare them in different ways. I'll include the output below, which shows each file, how many items per file (ie, and how big each item is), and what the Name+Description of the first item in each file (if present, was).

-Chuck

Path = d:\games\Space Empires IV Gold\Data
number of files under 'Data': 27
Path = d:\games\Space Empires IV Gold\Chuck_Baseline\Data
number of files under 'Chuck_Baseline\Data': 27
Path = d:\games\Space Empires IV Gold\Derek's Mod\Data
number of files under 'Derek's Mod\Data': 28
Path = d:\games\Space Empires IV Gold\DevnullModGold\Data
number of files under 'DevnullModGold\Data': 28
Path = d:\games\Space Empires IV Gold\Pirates&NomadsV3.0\Data
number of files under 'Pirates&NomadsV3.0\Data': 29
Path = d:\games\Space Empires IV Gold\TDM-ModPack_310\Data
number of files under 'TDM-ModPack_310\Data': 28
EmpireTypes.txt, line #23!nSI: blank line found in a mono-tuple list

Main: World 'Data' being loaded, parsed, & reset.
world.reset() on 'Data'

Filename:
Data\Abilities.txt item count: 139 item size: 1

Data\CompEnhancement.txt item count: 10 item size: 14
Larger sized weapon mount which increases damage from the weapon by 2 times. Req
uires a vehicle size of at least 400kT. Can only be used on Direct Fire weapons.

Data\Components.txt item count: 487 item size: 28
'Rock Colony': Materials needed to start a colony on a rock planet.

Data\Cultures.txt item count: 14 item size: 12
'Neutral': A race with no specific advantages or disadvantages.

Data\DefaultColonyTypes.txt item count: 8 item size: 1
'Military Installation':
Data\DefaultDesignTypes.txt item count: 23 item size: 1
'Attack Ship':
Data\DefaultStrategies.txt item count: 10 item size: 49
'Optimal Firing Range':
Data\Demeanors.txt item count: 8 item size: 1

Data\EmperorNames.txt item count: 26 item size: 1

Data\EmperorTitles.txt item count: 27 item size: 1

Data\EmpireTypes.txt item count: 14 item size: 1

Data\Events.txt item count: 17 item size: 10

Data\Facility.txt item count: 149 item size: 18
'Mineral Miner Facility I': Large scale planet processor which mines minerals fr
om the deepest layers.

Data\Formations.txt item count: 10 item size: 69
'Arrowhead': Formation with the leader at point position and all other ships ali
gned in a "V" shape behind him.

Data\Happiness.txt item count: 3 item size: 42
'Peaceful': Populations respond well to good events such as ships being construc
ted, colonies being created, Partnership treaties, etc. [ ... ]

[Shadowstar]

Well, what I was thinking was going with something similar to the mods that exist for games like Unreal Tournament, Quake(s), etc. Those mods all change the code of the programs but do so using a patch system. You can't do squat with the mod patch without the game itself. The patch simply alters the game code, but doesn't contain any actual executable code. However, because those games support mods, they have options within them that allow someone to play with the default code or to "activate" a mod. SEIV doesn't have this feature. The mod feature that it does support is limited to the configurable data files only (through the use of seperate folders), and not actual game code. If we were to do something like this, we would need to give the mod a function that allows players to quickly and easily turn it on or off, allowing someone to play using the default SEIV code or the Starscape code as they wish.

The FTL map seems interesting, but there are some major problems I can think of in using it.

The first one, and probably the biggest is that it would take far too long to create a new map for each game, unless you can change the way the editor works to automatically generate random maps with empty systems in every square.

The second problem is that I've heard that putting too many systems in a map will cause the game/editor to crash.

If these problems could be worked out, I might consider this idea.

As a side note, I've expressed my plans to the Starscape players community and already two of them (that I know of) have gone out and bought SEIV Gold because of it.

[ June 09, 2002, 22:13: Message edited by: Shadowstar ]

[raynor]

Anyway, I haven't been wasting time-- I've been doing some coding myself. I need to clean it up and get my log4j stuff sane, but I'll try to put it on the web later today or tomorrow. Anyway, what I've written is a "universal SE4 data parser" which stores data in a LinkedHashMap for preserving item order, yet permits fast Queries.

It can also read data from several mods at once, keeping each "mod" or World seperate so that you can compare them in different ways. I'll include the output below, which shows each file, how many items per file (ie, and how big each item is), and what the Name+Description of the first item in each file (if present, was).

Sounds very interesting. I look forward to seeing it.

[raynor]

Originally posted by Shadowstar:
[QB]Well, what I was thinking was going with something similar to the mods that exist for games like Unreal Tournament, Quake(s), etc. Those mods all change the code of the programs but do so using a patch system. You can't do squat with the mod patch without the game itself. The patch simply alters the game code, but doesn't contain any actual executable code. However, because those games support mods, they have options within them that allow someone to play with the default code or to "activate" a mod. SEIV doesn't have this feature. The mod feature that it does support is limited to the configurable data files only (through the use of seperate folders), and not actual game code. If we were to do something like this, we would need to give the mod a function that allows players to quickly and easily turn it on or off, allowing someone to play using the default SEIV code or the Starscape code as they wish.

That's pretty interesting about the Quake/Unreal Tournament Mods. I didn't know such a thing was possible. I did know that companies could pay to license the engine itself to create new games. I think I read that it cost about a million bucks to license the Quake engine vs. about half that for the Unreal engine. I'm not sure if each company also demands a share of the sales percentages as well.

Hmm... I wonder if I can create an analogy. In a Quake III mod, you could change any of the graphics or sounds and probably tweak different parameters. But I wonder if you could code it so that there was such a thing as ghosts that could walk through walls? And, could you create creatures, such as ghosts, that can only be harmed by magical weapons. Well, maybe you could on that Last one. I think it might let you give limited immunity to certain weapon types. But I don't know that it would let you have a player character play as a ghost with the ability to materialize and dematerialize, would it? That might be something that we think is really cool but that they didn't code into the game.

I hope that is almost an adequate analogy to explain the difficulty of modding SE4 to do what you want. Your idea is incredibly cool--I think I played Starflight I & II? I know I played Star Control I, II and III.

Well, anyways, cool idea but just not possible even if you had a team of programmers available. It would require enough work that you'd be better of writing your own game.

Of course, if you ever get access to the source code for a game like Star Control II, drop me a line.

[Shadowstar]

[quote]Originally posted by raynor:

Hmm... I wonder if I can create an analogy. In a Quake III mod, you could change any of the graphics or sounds and probably tweak different parameters. But I wonder if you could code it so that there was such a thing as ghosts that could walk through walls? And, could you create creatures, such as ghosts, that can only be harmed by magical weapons. Well, maybe you could on that Last one. I think it might let you give limited immunity to certain weapon types. But I don't know that it would let you have a player character play as a ghost with the ability to materialize and dematerialize, would it? That might be something that we think is really cool but that they didn't code into the game.

Actually, there are a number of mods in a number of games (Unreal Tournament for one) that do very similar things to what you have described above. There is a mod recently released for UT called Unreal 4-Ever Fortress. Basically an upgrade of the previously released U4E but with modifications to facilitate a more "team fortress" style game. There are something like 15 different classes, and I think it's compatible with the previous U4E's model-based classes, so you almost get a race/class combo type deal when setting up your character. One of the classes is a wizard which has a ton of spells to choose from. I think there is some kind of astral projection spell that allows a wizard to "project" themselves. Thier body stays where it is (meaning you need to stay somewhere safe or you get fragged six ways from sunday), but your astral self can float around, go through walls, be transparent, and I think even attack people. The astral self cant carry the flag though I dont think and the spell is a high level spell so it takes a while to earn it. There are other features ranging from new weapons (including a few that can shoot through walls), and one wizard spell that causes lava pools to form in your footsteps. U4E is almost a completely different game, but it behaves just like any other mod for UT (and there are some even more bizarre mods out there). U4EF also installs U4E Gauntlet, which enables all of the monsters from the original Unreal in UT. They spawn from randomly placed gates throughout any level and the players must work together to kill them all and destroy all the gates, and then kill some bosses to win the level. Most of this stuff is so different from the standard UT game experience that it really qualifies as a new game. However, you can't play U4E without UT, and U4E is a completely free download.

UT is a great example of a game which has been modded so completely that, once you own UT, you can essentially indefinately extend its replayability by creating or downloading free mods done by fans across the internet. This has the obvious beneficial effect of increasing UT's sales. The more mods the fans develop, the more people will want to buy UT.

Now, why couldn't something like that be possible with SEIV? All I want is hyperspace. heh, heh.

The project is "Starscape" not "Starflight", however, if you are interested in Starflight, I also happen to be the lead sound coordinator for the official Starflight 3 Project. SF3 will be a continuation, picking up 5 years after SF2 ended. The Spemin have been beaten and put in thier place (but for how long?!), the Gazurtoid war continues with no end in sight, and Interstel and old Arth have seen the rise of The New Empire.

Both the Leghk sector and the Earth sector will be in this game, plus a top-secret new sector. Technology has been updated, and new weapons will be available for the players to use. The project aims to update Starflight for modern computers. As the sound coordinator, it is my job to ensure that the game's sound effects are comparable to modern games. I think I have done my job quite well. It's not due for release for a while, and development's been a bit slow lately, but the project has been running for 5/6 years now and we are nearing the end. Recently we've been able to start releasing internal alpha builds for testing, but we are adding new content with each release.

If you want more information on Starflight 3, visit the website at: http://www.starflight3.net/

Join the forums if you want, and talk to the ever so zany Starflight 3 fan community (but be warned - these people are weird!)... or join in one of the long-running story threads in the Nebula Lounge.

Boy, I would make a good salesman.

[raynor]

Compared to most of the games out there, Space Empires IV is extremely moddable--especially when you compare it to other space conquest games. But from what you've told me about Unreal, I don't think Space Empires IV is quite as moddable.

[raynor]

Please remember, however, that the makers of Unreal make money off people using their game engine to create new games. They have a HUGE staff in comparison to Malfador's ->ONE<- programmer and can expend essentially infinite time <in comparison> to make Unreal expandable in the ways you described.

That's right. Malfador Machinations is just one guy working on this game outside the normal business hours of his other job. Wow! I would truly enjoy meeting Aaron Hall. He must be one heck of guy to accomplish so much. I'm extremely happy with what we've got so far.

I really, really, really, <infinite> wish that space conquest games such as Space Empires IV were as popular as first person shooters such as Quake and Unreal. Yep, I'd definitely like to see Aaron in a Ferrari.

But, even more, it would be nice if there were a team of folks 1/10th as talented as Aaron Hall making the game moddable enough to make your Starscape mode easy.

[Lemmy]

Sure, UT is far more moddable than SE4, but you would have to a pretty good programmer to accomplish even a small mod for UT, while almost everyone who can play SE4 can mod it.