Mod: Conceptual Balance 1.3, updated documentation

[Xietor]

Master Lich is a good pretender, and i have used him in 2 of my past 6 mp games. Also used the Lich and the Mother of Serpents. Mother of Serpents got reduced as well. I used the Immortal shin pretender in one, but more as a novelty. i do not think the Shin. unique hero is worth the cost.

In the 6th I used the Gorgon, whose price doubled. But I definitely understand the Gorgon being raised, though it is a shame since it is the signature Pangaea Pretender. But the Gorgon is not Pangaea only(:

Tyrant's favorite pretender IS the Master Lich however. And the Kingmaker poll showed several players using the ML, including one of my immediate neighbors.

So if the purpose of the Pretender portion of CBM is to create greater diversity, lowering the cost for a pretender already used more than most others would seem to work at cross purposes with that goal.

[Sombre]

Re: Gorgon - you should hopefully now see other signature pretenders like lord of the wild or great mother seeing use.

I thought the ML was ok at the previous price, but it is certainly possible that it's being overrated by people. It's definitely no PoD. I don't think it's been turned into a no brainer by the price reduction or anything.

[Zeldor]

One typo:

Lord of the Forest has "power to rally the beats of the wood" . Of course should be beasts, not beats.


The only one thing I don't like is increased cost for Risen Oracle. Yes, it is great pretender, but hard to do it with Agarthas as awake. They really NEED awake pretender and they also need good scales. When you meet Agartha you should be pretty much ready to face Oracle or Olm [and Olm could get some domsummon of small olms or smth else to encourage taking it awake or dormant].

[Xietor]

Agreed. The price reduction is small.

But I am not a noob, and I gladly pay the 100 points at times for the ML. Heck he was in the Hall of Fame in the 1st Big Game with 65 Nations for a long time. Shadow Blast and Banefire plus he can't die in his own dominion. And the Master Lich with astral/death combo can be quite evil, as you get risk free magic duels.

Similarly, Tyrant has played in many mp games. While there may be room for debate on his value, there is at least a strong consensus of players that favor him even at 100 points.

So my only thought is why mess with what is not clearly out of whack? We are in total agreement that many many pretenders cost way too much and are never used. And that is the appeal to me of the pretender portion of the CBM.

But I would resist the temptation to lower the value of pretenders that many expereinced mp use at the base cost. And I think the ML is the only one. So it is not a big deal.

As I mentioned to Coobe, the breadth of this mod is tremendous, and no one is going to be pleased with every single aspect of it. There is likely no other mod that has had the amount of work devoted to it. And maybe it will prompt changes.

I do think the Worthy Heroes Mod has prompted a change in thinking, as I recently observed the Agartha vanilla heroes look very Worthy! And I noted KO's comment in Kingmaker that there likely is no need to upgrade the new races heroes, as
they are tough as well.

In fact WH is so commonly used, even Edi thought one of the heroes that had been enabled in the WH mod was also enabled in the vanilla game.

So mods can serve as a testing ground, or beta test if you will. And if they work exceedingly well, then parts of them may be adopted into the base game.

[quantum_mechani]

Xietor said:
Agreed. The price reduction is small.

But I am not a noob, and I gladly pay the 100 points at times for the ML. Heck he was in the Hall of Fame in the 1st Big Game with 65 Nations for a long time. Shadow Blast and Banefire plus he can't die in his own dominion. And the Master Lich with astral/death combo can be quite evil, as you get risk free magic duels.

Similarly, Tyrant has played in many mp games. While there may be room for debate on his value, there is at least a strong consensus of players that favor him even at 100 points.

So my only thought is why mess with what is not clearly out of whack? We are in total agreement that many many pretenders cost way too much and are never used. And that is the appeal to me of the pretender portion of the CBM.

But I would resist the temptation to lower the value of pretenders that many expereinced mp use at the base cost. And I think the ML is the only one. So it is not a big deal.

As I mentioned to Coobe, the breadth of this mod is tremendous, and no one is going to be pleased with every single aspect of it. There is likely no other mod that has had the amount of work devoted to it. And maybe it will prompt changes.

I do think the Worthy Heroes Mod has prompted a change in thinking, as I recently observed the Agartha vanilla heroes look very Worthy! And I noted KO's comment in Kingmaker that there likely is no need to upgrade the new races heroes, as
they are tough as well.

In fact WH is so commonly used, even Edi thought one of the heroes that had been enabled in the WH mod was also enabled in the vanilla game.

So mods can serve as a testing ground, or beta test if you will. And if they work exceedingly well, then parts of them may be adopted into the base game.

Regarding the master liche, I have yet to ever encounter a veteran player using one, let alone winnning with it. I'm happy for someone to prove me wrong, play a duel and see how evil they really are.

As for a testing a ground for changes to the base game- only in the rarest circumstances. Firstly Illwinter has a said repeatedly they don't want to put much time into balance, and that's part of why they are supporting so much modding. Second, they are very reluctant to change anything that contradicts the manual. And thirdly their balance methods are different, while I have to use nerfs very sparingly, that is more or less the exclusive type of balancing Illwinter uses.

While I of course support using pieces and parts of the mod (that's why there is a segmented version), I do wonder if you like most the changes why you'd dismiss 75% of them out of hand.

About the magic scale, it's a very tough issue, it pains me either way it's set up. However, I have come to realize that using the dom2 magic scale in the end reduces one's options.

[Kristoffer O]

> I have yet to ever encounter a veteran player using one, let alone winnning with it.

I used one in my partially successful game as MA Mictlan (prior to the adding of skypriests etc). But I suppose I don't pick pretenders out of efficiency

[quantum_mechani]

Obviously, it's a testament to your skill you were still able to win!

I'm quite open to the idea of not tweaking the master liche, but I know would not use him as is base game, so I'd really appreciate someone smacking me around with him to get the idea.

[Xietor]

lol QM. I have won with a Master Lich, and was doing extremely well in the 1st Big Game with one when the game ended due to the unit cap(owned 7 capitals). I am sure if you made a post on the main forum numerous players would answer in the affirmative that they have won large mp games with the ML.

You cannot plan your pretender point system around blitz games(well you can but..) as they are not complete games.

So i have yet to taste defeat in 2 mp games where i used the ML, and with him i defeated numerous nations and mp, K(lanka), Tibbs(la Man), Sauromatia, Franktrollman LA Atlantis, and several other good mp in the other game.

And as i said, my ML spent a long time in the Hall of Fame in a 65 nation game. Explain that if is he is so bad. and there were 3 gorgons in that game as well.

No, I would not take a ML for a blitz game, but that is a small percentage of player time spent on games. maybe more games in toto since they end faster, but less total player time i would imagine.

The fact is the pod is useless against an astral nation. 3-4 mages spamming solar rays and he is dead. Of course if the ML dies, he just lives on to fight another day! And unlike the pod he cannot be targeted.

Immortal pretenders are good in large mp games, because it can be hard to keep them alive. you have no idea what nation you will border or will be fighting. So immortal pretenders, especially immortal rainbow pretenders that can be used in combat without fear, are valuable.

[quantum_mechani]

Xietor said:
lol QM. I have won with a Master Lich, and was doing extremely well in the 1st Big Game with one when the game ended due to the unit cap. I am sure if you made a post on the main forum numerous players would answer in the affirmative.

You cannot plan your pretender point system around blitz games(well you can but..) as they are not complete games.

So i have yet to taste defeat in 2 mp games where i used the ML, and with him i defeated numerous nations and mp, K(lanka), Tibbs(la Man), Sauromatia, Franktrollman LA Atlantis, and several other good mp in the other game.

And as i said, my ML spent a long time in the Hall of Fame in a 65 nation game. Explain that is he is so bad.

No, I would not take a ML for a blitz game, but that is a small percentage of player time spent on games. maybe more games in toto since they end faster, but less total player time i would imagine.

The fact is the pod is useless against an astral nation. 3-4 mages spamming solar rays and he is dead. Of course if the ML dies, he just lives on to fight another day! And unlike the pod he cannot be targeted.

Not all duels are blitzes, I've seen them played on very big maps. The crux of it is how well, directly or indirectly. can the master liche help you win wars. Obviously it matters what part of the game the war happens in, but I maintain that pitting nations/pretenders/options head to head is the most variable controlled way to show balance.

You have done well with the master liche in some games, but keep in mind the difference we are talking about here is less than one scale tick. I could price the master liche at 150 points, someone could play them and win. Does that mean it's a good price for him?

About the PoD and solar rays, he can make it a lot farther by holding in the back 5 rounds.

The bottom line is, I'm not especially attached to any specific price for the Master Liche, I don't consider a matter of 25 points on him a major issue. I do appreciate feedback on any changes, but the kind of things that usually help change my mind:

1. Compare ability by ability with a similar option. I.E., if you wanted to show the base game PoD/Lord of Sky weren't balanced, compare their abilities and price.
2. Beat me with the option you think is too good. This is my favorite and most sure fire option.
3. A big enough volume of response from a variety of people that support/don't support a change.

[Xietor]

Actually, my main point for you to change him back to base cost is he is used by plenty of players at the base cost.

Even if I beat you with the ML, or Tuidjy did, or you beat me, does not really decide anything. I may just be a better player than you, and I may be able to beat you with the Lord of Fertility. Or you may be able to beat me with the Lord of Fertility.

My main reason for leaving him alone is not that he is good-it is he is perceived as good by many players. Since the purpose of your pretender point redistribution system is to get players to use pretenders no one typically plays,
reducing the ML's cost does not serve the purpose of your pretender's portion of your CBM. He is already one of the most used pretenders in Dom III.