OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!

[Huzurdaddi]

There's also the fact that national healthcare systems such as the Canadian one provide the same services for 57% of the cost.

I guess you have never tried both services personally. They are not at all comparable. Canadian health care sucks.

*IF* you can afford US health care it is far superior. Period.

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
If you don't have a moral problem with not providing health care to everyone, and hence allowing them to suffer and die from preventable causes, then there's not much I could ever say to convince you otherwise.

That's not what I said... I will write with a different explanation.
Providing complete healthcare for all citizens will give more reasons for lazy people not to work and people doing illegal actions to continue.

As far as any moral problems... John Kerry is unapologetically pro-abortion. But as a Catholic, he is required to be personally opposed to the idea.

[ July 26, 2004, 19:52: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[Demosthenes]

Originally posted by NTJedi:
Providing complete healthcare for all citizens will give more reasons for lazy people not to work and people doing illegal actions to continue.

Sort of. Most people who choose to work aren't doing it for healthcare. They're doing it for the Plasma TV or the new car or, uh, food.

Creating a system to prevent the lowest levels of society from literaly dying in the gutter from lack of health insurance is IMO not likely to increase unemployment.

I'm not big on Federal Welfare programs et. al. myself, but I'd like to know that if I ever find myself on the bottom rung that I could still get an appendectomy free of charge.

[ July 26, 2004, 19:51: Message edited by: Demosthenes ]

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Demosthenes:
I'm not big on Federal Welfare programs et. al. myself, but I'd like to know that if I ever find myself on the bottom rung that I could still get an appendectomy free of charge.

Sounds nice from the offer... but take a look at the taxes for countries which do provide this service.
Another side effect would be hospitals and doctors offices even more busy then now. No longer will you be waiting an hour... expect three hours.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
I guess you have never tried both services personally. They are not at all comparable. Canadian health care sucks.

No, it really doesn't "suck". If you'd look at the most basic of statistics, you'd see that our mortality statistics are comparable or better than that of the U.S.

*IF* you can afford US health care it is far superior. Period.

That's the problem. You can't simply ignore the people who can't afford it and then state that the system is superior. If you want your sample to be at all indicative of the actual state, then you must include even those people that can't afford proper healthcare.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by NTJedi:
Sounds nice from the offer... but take a look at the taxes for countries which do provide this service.

This is beside the point. The overall expenditure on health care per capita comes from the population of a country, regardless of whether it is collected through taxes or directly from the people.

Another side effect would be hospitals and doctors offices even more busy then now. No longer will you be waiting an hour... expect three hours.

This is little more than FUD. Even without making an appointment, and while walking in to a very busy University medical centre, I have rarely waited even an hour to see a Dr., and certainly never anywhere close to three hours.

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
This is beside the point. The overall expenditure on health care per capita comes from the population of a country, regardless of whether it is collected through taxes or directly from the people.

Higher Taxes is the point ! Many citizens as myself have a tough time making our house & utilities payments where we can't afford to give another $250.oo for some new healthcare plan which covers everyone in the USA. Why should we pay higher taxes for more government intervention. Let us as citizens pay for healthcare when we need the care.

This is little more than FUD. Even without making an appointment, and while walking in to a very busy University medical centre, I have rarely waited even an hour to see a Dr., and certainly never anywhere close to three hours.

Last time I went to the hospital for emergency care(E.R.) I waited an hour before seeing a doctor... and I was even marked with high priority. Not all hospitals are the same... and without a doubt the waiting time would increase no matter where you are.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Yes, healthcare costs a lot, but it costs a lot regardless of whether the government collects taxes to pay for it, or the people pay for it individually.

This may be the case, but paying for your healthcare individually does have one very large benefit, especially because health care costs a lot: If you are healthy, you don't need any!

As opposed to the Canadian system, where you end up paying for somebody ELSE's problems. If it's not contagious, it's not my problem!

And the real reason health care costs so much *IS* because of things like "health insurance": It abstracts the payment for healthcare from the individual, who likely doesn't have that much money, and therefore, one cannot charge more than the typical customer can afford to pay, to a monolithic corporate or government entity with loose accountability and nearly bottomless pockets. There's a REASON why the government seems to pay so ridiculously much for things: because nobody really cares. To the average man on the street, what the government or a corporation spends on something is a statistic with little or no personal impact on him. When I was young, buying "health insurance" was something you had to do if you lived in an area with a strong mob presence.

Insurance is a big sham: How else would it even be profitable, unless they were obviously charging you more than they were paying out? Unless the Mafia is trying to sell you insurance, don't bother. Keep your money, it'll do you more good in your hands than someone else's.

The fact of the matter is that the healthcare system in both countries sucks in the same way for different reasons. In Canada, it's government-funded healthcare. Everyone gets it, including people who rightly couldn't afford it, and therefore don't really need it, and as a result, in some places, it can be too crowded with people getting unnecessary treatment. In the US, it's because of insurance companies and frivolous lawsuits, which has jacked up costs to the point where people who SHOULD be able to afford it, CAN'T anymore. The system sucks. Pick your flavor of suckage.

[NTJedi]

Even more importantly is John Kerry is going against his catholic religion which is a serious moral issue.
John Kerry is unapologetically pro-abortion... yet as a Catholic, he is required to be personally opposed to the idea.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by NTJedi:
Higher Taxes is the point ! Many citizens as myself have a tough time making our house & utilities payments where we can't afford to give another $250.oo for some new healthcare plan which covers everyone in the USA. Why should we pay higher taxes for more government intervention.

Most modern health care systems spend either less per person, or the same amount per person as the U.S. system, and achieve much better results. (The U.S. is 38th in the world for quality of health care.) While your taxes will increase to pay for a public health care system, your overall cost will only increase if you never contract a serious illness in your life.

Let us as citizens pay for healthcare when we need the care.

And if you can't afford to pay, then we should just let you rot?

Not all hospitals are the same... and without a doubt the waiting time would increase no matter where you are.

Do you have any evidence that the waiting time would increase? Since I doubt that you do, you can hardly say that it's "without a doubt".