Is this gamey?

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by DavidG:

quote:

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Originally posted by Gryphin:
Gamey – Seems that way but is it a “ bad gamey”
The net results are:
1) It keeps what may be a personal friend in the game
2) Allows an extra research que for the alliance

What are the other results?

You forgot the BIG one. All those extra resources from the trade deals.

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Except that the only one getting any benefit from those trade deals is the player being gifted the planet. Their economy is so small that their trade partners won't even notice if they are gone. And while the income from trade will allow the refugee player to remain in the game, it won't really allow them to be a factor in the game. So on balance I think it's really a non issue.

The only tangible benefit worth mentioning really is the extra research queue. And that I believe is not that significant. By the time this shell game is likely to be attempted the game will ahve reached the point where an empire doing research soley with research points recieved in trade is going to slow the alliance down as much as help it.

The only time I would call it gamey is if the game has some sort of specific victory conditions having to do with that player being eliminated, like the Survivor tournament or the Paranoia game. Other then that it's really not a issue for me.

So the player is still alive in the game, they aren't a factor in the game anymore. Move on to bigger fish.

Geoschmo

[DavidG]

Originally posted by geoschmo:

quote:

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Originally posted by DavidG:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gryphin:
Gamey – Seems that way but is it a “ bad gamey”
The net results are:
1) It keeps what may be a personal friend in the game
2) Allows an extra research que for the alliance

What are the other results?

You forgot the BIG one. All those extra resources from the trade deals.

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Except that the only one getting any benefit from those trade deals is the player being gifted the planet. Their economy is so small that their trade partners won't even notice if they are gone. And while the income from trade will allow the refugee player to remain in the game, it won't really allow them to be a factor in the game. So on balance I think it's really a non issue.

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Assuming the player is keeping all those resources for himself then you are quite correct. What if, however, he is gifting resources back to the player who gifted the planet?

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by DavidG:
Assuming the player is keeping all those resources for himself then you are quite correct. What if, however, he is gifting resources back to the player who gifted the planet?

Well that's kind of a convoluted method of resource procurement. If I found someone going through all that trouble in a game to get a measely 50K minerals every turn I would be more concerned about what other shenanigans they were up to. In that case the minerals themselves would be less of a problem themselves and more of a symptom of a general lack of sportsmanship. I would not like to play with them again, or their co-conspirator.

I have no trouble whatsoever with players helping each other out in games. But when one is doing so to the absolute exclusion of his own empire and getting nothing in return, as in this case of gifting away all his trade income instead of using it to rebuild his empire, then that isn't gamey. It's cheating.

Geoschmo

[ July 25, 2003, 13:51: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Slynky]

Well, actually, assuming research has been passed, it doesn't even have to stop at gifting back the resources...the person could build a ship at his shipyard and gift a built ship. Even better.

[geoschmo]

Well, I still don't think the gifting of the planet itself is a problem. I think it all comes down to what the intent behind the gifting of the planet is. If it is to get around some victory condition that depends on a players elimination then obviously it is wrong. If it is to make possible some convoluted scheme to gain for the gifting player additional resources, research, ships, etc. out of ether then I think it is also clearly wrong.

If on the other hand it's merely a way to keep a friend in the game and he intends to try and legitmatly rebuild his empire, or if it's a matter of saving a weaker empire and maybe having them become a useful ally later in the game (The fable of the mouse and the lion anyone? ) AND it is not expresslly forbidden in the pre-game conditions I would not have a problem with it.

Geoschmo

[ July 25, 2003, 14:29: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Gryphin]

Geo said it first, (and better) but since I prepared it:

Seems like it comes down to
Intent
Execution
If the recieving player keeps and uses the resources then it seems fair. Yes they can using the Trade Resources create a ship every two to four turns. If this were a specialty ship such as a warp opener / star buster / mine sweeper / cloked spy ship etc… it could have a impact on the game.
Perhaps the two sides need to reach an agreement on what the recieving player can and cannot do.
Some items for consideration are:
Intel
Research
Specialty Ships

[Stone Mill]

As pointed out earlier, the benefits of this move may be overestimated. The bonus produced by the arrangement is a drop in the ocean, and the empire giving the planet has foregone a chunk of resources.

It may be frustrating for you, but it is not gamey. I have seen this move many times, and mostly, I think that it is to keep a player in the game so they can continue to have some kind of impact for a bit.

For all intent and puropse, they aren't able to really do much with one planet, so it does not bother me at all. Their expansion will be at the cost of their allies. There is only so much space in the quadrant, and you have made progress in a forward direction.

[DavidG]

Originally posted by Stone Mill:
As pointed out earlier, the benefits of this move may be overestimated. The bonus produced by the arrangement is a drop in the ocean, and the empire giving the planet has foregone a chunk of resources.

Actually I think it is likely the player with one planet is generating as much as 50% of the resources of my 3rd place empire due to treaties.

[Slynky]

Originally posted by Stone Mill:
As pointed out earlier, the benefits of this move may be overestimated. The bonus produced by the arrangement is a drop in the ocean, and the empire giving the planet has foregone a chunk of resources.

It may be frustrating for you, but it is not gamey. I have seen this move many times, and mostly, I think that it is to keep a player in the game so they can continue to have some kind of impact for a bit.

For all intent and puropse, they aren't able to really do much with one planet, so it does not bother me at all. Their expansion will be at the cost of their allies. There is only so much space in the quadrant, and you have made progress in a forward direction.

Without knowing all the details, it's not necessarily a drop in the bucket. IF the "little player" is allied to 2 other empires who each have 200,000 in research and 400,000 in resource generation, the treaty will generate (varies according to empire settings) a chunk of research (to be put to use on SOMETHING) and a LOT more resources that could be gifted back to each empire than the gifted planet could EVER pruduce (assuming it was just a 1, 2, or 3-fac planet and not some huge breathable).

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Its not a surrender... Its the opposite, really. The big empire gifts a planet to the almost-dead empire in order to keep his trading partner alive.
The little guy gets the trade income from the big guy to rebuild a fleet and help out the war effort.

Its like a Terrorist Shell Game.
"This is his Last hideout! We'll bomb it to glass!"
"Oops, he's left and is hiding out in yet another neighbouring country's land"
"Now THIS is his Last hideout! We'll really bomb it to glass and then bomb it some more..."
etc.

Sounds pretty annoying for the person playing the US But would make an entertaining story.

It was just an example, of things that I want to clear before join a game (really make me angry when one empire surrender to their ally).
If I don't asked about questions like this, then, my opinion is that will be forced to accept anything...
For things like this, was discussed before, if would be good to have some standard "house rules" to play in PBW or not...