common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?

[tinkthank]

Originally posted by Boron:
ok as promised my first attempt to provide a cheap sc kill idea :

Here's one from me.

1. Choose Caelum base theme.
2. Recruit some troops, any troops. (Infantry of some sort would be nice.)
3. Set to "attack fliers"; kill SC.

Heheh, sorry Boron, couldnt resist after our Last little MP together.

Here's another one.
1. Choose Machaka. Or Marignon. Or Tien Chi. Or any nation with easy access to fire and archers.
2. Reasearch Flaming Arrows.
3. Set to "fire enemy fliers"; kill SC.

EDIT: Sorry, this assumes by SC you mean your beloved VQ.

FA is particularly nice because at least some of your troops can keep their distance; the SC cant be everywhere at once.

Here's another one:
1. Choose Ermor. Or Pan CW. Or any nation with easy access to lots of undead.
2. Make lots of undead armies led by undead mages.
3. Swarm SC.

[ July 29, 2004, 15:08: Message edited by: tinkthank ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by alexi:
ummm, the description of the spell says, and i quote: "Magic resistance negates"

That surprises me actually, since there's not muc reason for an astral 3 mage to pick it over soul slay then.

[Boron]

Originally posted by Kel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boron:
so next attempt :
take pangenea or vanheim or ulm . rush to con 7 .

Putting aside the idea of why you would even want to rush to const-7 to make nation specific common troops useful against SCs...
or why you couldn't just use crossbows with wind guide, flaming guide or just a mass of them...
-Kel

---

because flaming arrows shouldn't work according to saber cherry's dice odds

flaming arrows has 8 ap damage .
avg. damage on a 20 protection unit : 1.29
avg. damage on a 30 protection unit : 0.321

the normal x-bow missile : marignon :
10 ap damage :
so avg. damage on 20 protection : 2.13
" " " " 30 " : 0.570

i wouldn't rely on that .
staff of storm lets you use only 50% of missiles or precision is -5 one of the 2 iirc .

invulnerability is a common sc buff . if you place your sc rearmost the hitting odds even with wind guide aren't too good .
so i wouldn't rely on killing him unbuffed in the first round of combat if you are defender .

furthermore lategame robe of invulnerability could be in use or a high prot armor .

bane lords + wraith lords & a couple of others have already something about 20 prot unequipped .

so you have quite a high chance not killing the sc . guess what happens if he flies in your archers :
lots of losses through friendly fire hehe .

[vigabrand]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boron:
so would you experts plz be so kind and simply post some sc's with their attack , defense and protection values unfatigued which you use yourself ?

Well, a common Bane Lord can have attack and defense values around 20-ish. Ice Devils and Arch Devils push into the 25+ range, and you can see highly experienced units such as high-class combat pretenders pushing into 30+, or even higher with the rare "Power" wish.

The right choice of ordinary schmoes can sometimes take down the lower-class ones, but most of the good ones tend to require magefire take down if you're not equipped with your own SCs, since ordinary troops get mowed through like grass. I suggest the use of lifeless ordinaries to impede the target's ability to lifesteal itself. Do NOT combine them with living troops, or your efforts to wear down the target may be undone by those living troops getting attacked and feeding an SC that was close to death. Lots of longdeads, statues, mechanicals, and/or golems work well here. Combine this with some sort of non-resistable attack, such as Astral Fire, Banefire, or Drain Life, and you can sink one without using your own.

---

Well I ran into a snag using mechanicals. Recently, I was fighting a VQ with mechanical men, and an iron dragon. The VQ was the only one on the field, so I couldn't stop my dragon from attacking after 2 rounds, so it gets there before my troops do. The VQ was hitting it and getting hp from it, and she finally kills it. My mechanical men get there and mostly surround her, and she continues to hit them and gain hp, and she eventually wiped out like 80% of my troops. Next go around I was able to cast weapons of sharpness on my mech men and managed to kill her quick enough before she did too much damage. I was under the assumption that mechanical units were not alive and wouldn't aid life drainers, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

[tinkthank]

Originally posted by vigabrand:

Well I ran into a snag using mechanicals. Recently, I was fighting a VQ with mechanical men, and an iron dragon. The VQ was the only one on the field, so I couldn't stop my dragon from attacking after 2 rounds, so it gets there before my troops do. The VQ was hitting it and getting hp from it, and she finally kills it. My mechanical men get there and mostly surround her, and she continues to hit them and gain hp, and she eventually wiped out like 80% of my troops. Next go around I was able to cast weapons of sharpness on my mech men and managed to kill her quick enough before she did too much damage. I was under the assumption that mechanical units were not alive and wouldn't aid life drainers, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

You know, I think life drain may be broken in a couple of respects. I could swear too that I had seen a lifedrainer gain HP from constructs and from undead at some points.

[Ryukenden]

Originally posted by Boron:
because flaming arrows shouldn't work according to saber cherry's dice odds

flaming arrows has 8 ap damage .
avg. damage on a 20 protection unit : 1.29
avg. damage on a 30 protection unit : 0.321

the normal x-bow missile : marignon :
10 ap damage :
so avg. damage on 20 protection : 2.13
" " " " 30 " : 0.570

i wouldn't rely on that .
staff of storm lets you use only 50% of missiles or precision is -5 one of the 2 iirc .

invulnerability is a common sc buff . if you place your sc rearmost the hitting odds even with wind guide aren't too good .
so i wouldn't rely on killing him unbuffed in the first round of combat if you are defender .

furthermore lategame robe of invulnerability could be in use or a high prot armor .

bane lords + wraith lords & a couple of others have already something about 20 prot unequipped .

so you have quite a high chance not killing the sc . guess what happens if he flies in your archers :
lots of losses through friendly fire hehe .

Aren't crossbows "armor piercing," making them able to negate protection? If that's so, then the SC could have astronomical prot and still take full damage from a crossbow hit (unless his def is also high). And yea, a flying SC would cause a pretty high ff casualies. And if the flying SC has boots of quickness and elixirs of life (if the elixir brings you back to life during the battle), then the SC is probably going to annihilate the crossbows. However, there is the chance that the SC could rout due to morale (unlikely, but possible).

[ July 29, 2004, 16:52: Message edited by: Ryukenden ]

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Ryukenden:
Wait a sec, aren't crossbows "armor piercing," making them able to negate protection?

One of the turn tips mentions that crossbows are AP, so they halve (not negate) prot.

[Ryukenden]

Originally posted by Arryn:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ryukenden:
Wait a sec, aren't crossbows "armor piercing," making them able to negate protection?

One of the turn tips mentions that crossbows are AP, so they halve (not negate) prot.

---

Oops, haven't gotten that tip yet. Well, that idea has now gone down the toilet. Hmmm, there's always the Eye of Aiming scheme (probably won't work, but worth a shot).

[ July 29, 2004, 16:58: Message edited by: Ryukenden ]

[Boron]

Originally posted by tinkthank:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boron:
ok as promised my first attempt to provide a cheap sc kill idea :

Here's one from me.

1. Choose Caelum base theme.
2. Recruit some troops, any troops. (Infantry of some sort would be nice.)
3. Set to "attack fliers"; kill SC.

Heheh, sorry Boron, couldnt resist after our Last little MP together.

---

no comment on that one

Originally posted by tinkthank:

Here's another one.
1. Choose Machaka. Or Marignon. Or Tien Chi. Or any nation with easy access to fire and archers.
2. Reasearch Flaming Arrows.
3. Set to "fire enemy fliers"; kill SC.

EDIT: Sorry, this assumes by SC you mean your beloved VQ.

FA is particularly nice because at least some of your troops can keep their distance; the SC cant be everywhere at once.

see me new post why that is only relyable until protection 20 according to the odds .

Originally posted by tinkthank:

Here's another one:
1. Choose Ermor. Or Pan CW. Or any nation with easy access to lots of undead.
2. Make lots of undead armies led by undead mages.
3. Swarm SC.

undeads have 0 fatigue ---> never fatigue out ----> no ap attacks .

the later swarmers of course win the attack throw.
but due to their lack of ap even if you get a value of 20 from adding weapondamage + strenght you only make 0.131 avg. damage against a 30 protection unit .
so you hit but even the small regeneration of the vq will be enough to heal that damage .

sorry couldn't resist to answer

what you can achieve with swarming by mass skellettons etc. is of course reaching turn 50 and force the sc to rout .

but thnx you gave me a new idea :
i so far lack any jotun expierience so this is only a guess :
when jotun uses raise skelletons shouldn't they get undead jotun giants ?
a living jotun has a strengh of about 20 so i assume a longdead giant has still a strengh of 20 . together with the jotun weapons they get +3 for spear and +7 for axe and +9 for longsword .

not bad . so at best only 1 difference between prot and damage .
there the odds are 1.67 avg damage .

i have run a quicktest . it seems that 1/10 or something similiar of the reanimated are longdeads the rest normal skeletons .
powerful .

so a new very simply anti sc strat lol :

play niefelheim ^^. you can chose good scales + only a support god there .
bring out 1 niefel jarl / turn .

research ench 3 .
just reanimate with your niefels then put them on what you want , i think attack orders would be good .

problem is 40 fatigue and d2 for reanimate orders.
so you can only cast it twice .

but later with 10 niefel jarls that are 100 skeletons 10 of them jotuns + the niefels .
that should kill most sc's very brutal .
if you even give the niefel jarls duskdaggers ^^.
you can use some gygias with lucky picks too for reanimation .

[archaeolept]

lol Boron, you think much too highly of 20 prot

a mass of flaming arrows will still devastate an SC w/ only 20 protection.

but if you want a cheap SC counter, go for the marignon flaming head bless strat, F9 S9 on massed flagellants. 200 bucks worth will kill a VQ.

[ July 29, 2004, 17:07: Message edited by: archaeolept ]