Just an idea

[Baron Munchausen]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cyrien:
This also might make emotionless a worthwhile racial trait. Make it so that emotionless races don't experience morale either as a positive or negative. They never get happy or sad. Beat em into the dirt or get beaten into the dirt and still no feelings one way or the other. As it is I really don't see much use myself in emotionless. Far too pricy and easy enough to keep my people happy.

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Another way to make emotionless worthwhile would be to have it confer other advantages. Maybe planets of emotionless races should be immune to PPP and their ships immune to crew insurrection? I'd almost say you could justify immunity to the Psychic allegiance converter, too, but that might be too much.

Also, as a general morale thing, how about a bonus when defending homeworlds? Ships over a homeworld could have bonuses to hit and militia/troops on a homeworld could have a bonus for 'ferocity'... hmm, would it be logical to remove these bonuses from 'emotionless' races?

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 03 October 2001).]

[chewy027]

Baron i agree with that for adding more depth to the emotionless trait. As it is it is pretty much worthless.

As for morale, as i said before, i think that there shouldn't be a facility and especially not a component to raise it. Granted a shore leave or something would raise morale but if your still loosing battles it shouldn't be that effective. Therefore i think that morale should be based off the ships performance in battle or perhaps discovery of new systems or anything that has to be earned by the ship. Tie it in with experience somehow that would be fine. But the flip side has to remain true to. Morale must have the possibility of lowering. And i agree comletely that ships with high morale and/or high experience levels should be far less susceptible to insurection and conVersion. Enough rambling from me.

[Menschenfresser]

Thinking about this a little further, and it might clear up the discussion between having it as part of the exp or separate.

I think it is impossible to have a ship by ship morale rating unless as I read in another thread, a retreat option is added to the tactical battle. The reason being is that if you lose, the ship is destroyed. Very few ships would actually suffer from bad morale. You are either alive or dead. It is probably impossible to even have a fleet morale rating. Well, I mean you can have one, but it would be worthless...never being negative.

Maybe "morale" isn't the right word...in that it implies the actual attitude of a given soldier, ship, unit, etc. It would have to function on a larger level, and be called something like "status of the armed forces," or even "mutiny rate." Something that is directly effected by an empire's win/loss ratio. As I said before, it could very well be segmented, in that any given empire has a separate rating when facing each different opponent.

A neat feature of this could be a "heroic acts" ability. I don't know how hard it would be to make the engine recognize battles won that should have been lost, etc. I don't know. Still running with the idea, even if I have no idea if it is possible to implement. I don't see much of a way to do it without, like some have suggested, an expansion pack or massive change in future patches.

[Cyrien]

mo·rale (m-rl)
n.
The state of the spirits of a person or group as exhibited by confidence, cheerfulness, discipline, and willingness to perform assigned tasks.

With this in mind there is no reason not to label what is going as morale as opposed to some other label.

Experience should play a roll in morale. I liked the idea of comparisons for fleet sizes especially. Perhaps the more "elite" a force is in experience the lower a morale penalty they would get and the slower morale in general would go down, and the faster it might go up.

Also morale should be empire wide and perhaps divided up by empires. Example being for the Star Trek Universe there would normally be pretty darn low moral when facing the Borg but when facing more common enemies and threats, especially ones that have been beaten in the past morale would be higher.

With this I would say there should be both an individual ship morale and an empire wide morale that is used more as a modifier when dealing with or battling with another empire. For the ship by ship it should work something similiar to planet happiness which is already a modifier of morale on a planet level.

For the system wide it should have one for each foreign empire which would act to reduce or increase morale for individual ships when they engage in battle with that specific empire.

Example:

You have 2 BC's and the enemy has 2 DN's.

Your BC's are well trained and have had several recent victories so their individual morale is high.

The DN's are much larger than your own BC's so your individual morale is abit lower, though not as low as it would be for a green crew.

However, your empire has had a long line of recent crushing defeats against this empire and so this reduces all morale by x amount for this battle.

Or, your empire has had a long line of recent crushing victories against this empire so this increases all morale by x amount for this battle.

The results of the battle come in and you compare it and determine how the individual ships involved where affected morale wise, and then how this affects your empire level morale against that empire.

Seems this would be a fun and varied system to implement as it could also lead to new technologies that could be used. Morale increasing for fanatacism with religious (especially if some holy symbol was built into the ship) no morale for emotionless, perhaps morale affecting weapons for psychic races and even a propaganda intel op which seeks to lower an empires general morale against your own or raise it against an enemies etc...

Morale could be used to help the AI come to decisions as well. Low morale = more likely to agree to peace etc and high morale less likely.

And as for ship by ship not being possible without a retreat option... I disagree. I have had many battles where one side was not totally wiped out, but one side clearly came out ahead. All that is needed is to base it on damage recieved. Even if you win but are badly damaged your morale is affected not as good as it happens. Perhaps make it so that based on simply surviving combat you get a morale bonus and then have it be modified with bonuses for kills made and negatives for allies killed and more negatives for damage done to you with some positives for damage dealt to enemy (Actual damage not shields damage). Store that for a single battle then analyze it at the end or even during combat (take damage moral goes down, deal damage moral goes up, enemy destroyed by my guys goes up, mine destroyed goes down).

[This message has been edited by Cyrien (edited 03 October 2001).]

[Cyrien]

Ok. ignore this one... double post. SO I will just save you the spam by deleting the text.

[This message has been edited by Cyrien (edited 03 October 2001).]

[Suicide Junkie]

quote:

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I think it is impossible to have a ship by ship morale rating unless as I read in another thread, a retreat option is added to the tactical battle. The reason being is that if you lose, the ship is destroyed. Very few ships would actually suffer from bad morale. You are either alive or dead. It is probably impossible to even have a fleet morale rating. Well, I mean you can have one, but it would be worthless...never being negative.

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That's why the decrease in morale has to be something like: -5% for ships in the same system as a lost battle, and -2% for ships in the entire empire.
Losing individual ships could say, reduce morale in the sector by 1%. If the ship was Elite, its loss could reduce morale 2% in the sector, and 1% system wide, and if the ship was legendary, morale would drop 3% in the sector, 2% system wide, and 1% empire wide.

That way, fighting a grinding war with heavy losses on both sides would destroy everybody's morale, and your legendary Flagship would have some strategic importance.
For example, destroying two Legendary ships while they are being retrofitted (even if you lose the battle) will still get you a big morale advantage, which you could use to win an evenly matched fleet action.
Racial happiness should probably affect morale, just like it works on planetary happiness.

[chewy027]

that sounds like a pretty equal way of doing it SJ along with a few other modifiers added in.

[Menschenfresser]

Excellent, SJ. That sounds like a perfect solution, and incorporating exp. into the mix is brilliant.

The whole key here is to make morale seriously hurt or help an empire. If it just provides a slight advantage or disadvantage it won't have much impact. And of course, the option to turn it off should be there.

[mac5732]

I also agree with what Menschenfreser said earlier about AI opponets and morale & experience. A human would take advantage of these but there would have to be some changes to get the AI to do the same in these areas as a human would, These ideas are great but we have to watch that a balance is struck between human & AI opponets. If the human player uses it and the AI is so so in these areas we could have a major imbalance of play. Also what about those races that have warrior, berserker, etc traits, I would think that due to their style they would start at a higher morale and experience level because of their trait. Also when they win, levels go up higher, but when they lose maybe an above average drop. On the same hand those that are peaceful or pacifist in nature would have lower levels in these areas as well.

just some ideas mac

[chewy027]

mac i don't think that a pcifist or peaceful empire should necessarily have a lower morale. They should be slower to loose morale but also slower to gain. Having a lower morale doesn't really make sense to me. On the flip side, the warriors and berserkers. They should be quicker to gain and quicker to loose.

As for the AI maybe they could gain a large increase in morale when winning a battle against a human as opposed to another AI