Question about radios

[raygun]

Originally Posted by Imp

Okay I did not really understand that & have no need to know where the units are.

So B1 + B2 can contact superiors buy [sic] radio.
B0 can also contact his superior AO & in fact is near by as has voice contact...

- emphasis mine

Really!

A0 is in voice contact with B0? They're 200 hexes apart!

C0 is in voice contact with B0? They're 12 hexes apart!

S0 is in voice contact w/C0 from 20 hexes away?



I'm going out on a limb and speculate that white R at 200 hex separation means they got all bars. Yellow R means you got some bars and the call could get dropped. If I have yellow R and I move to w/in 4 hex of my superior, I'm gonna get a white R. While my phone may still have a bad connection: I gots contact because I'm w/in verbal range. Right? OR, by moving either B1 or B0, B1 may get a white R. But if B0 moves such that B1's connection is improved, it could adversely affect C0's comm link to B0 wherby C0 gets no bars to B0 (outright red R). Right?

Suppose B1 drops their call during a rally attempt, does that count against B0? Does that mean that even C0 - with white R - can't be rallied by B0 because B1's rally failed (on account of B1's dropped call)?

[Imp]

Okay I am going to go out on a limb this is the situation at the start of the turn you are talking about NOT after you have moved units or turn 1?
The contact details are updated each turn not during it AFAIK.
Otherwise suggest you post the saved game & someone may look at it.
As all I do is look at out of contact units & follow the rules to bring them back into contact which works thats all I know as its all I need to.

I would say though & may well be wrong as just follow my gut now that units can sometimes maintain contact at longer range for a turn or 2 especially if trained to work independently like scouts.

[raygun]

I'm on turn 9. A0 hasn't moved. B0 hasn't moved. C0 hasn't moved. However, B1 and B2 have moved and Sx also. The distances cited are where the units presently are.

Found this in the v5 Game Guide:

Unit Communications Status, On the unit information pane at the bottom of the screen, the unit's comms link status with its superior HQ is now noted. The selected unit shown is 'In Contact' and so will be able to be rallied by its HQ, however if it is out of contact (shown in red) then it can only be rallied by its own leader. Radio contact is OK, but the link is not 100% reliable!

I understand CHQ link status is evaluated at the beginning of the turn.

Based on that and what Imp & Mobhack have said: 'in contact' means solid CHQ link, i.e., either verbal or by radio (in the latter case you gots all the bars). If yellow R you have CHQ link by radio only, but you gots only some bars (your call could be dropped), i.e., potential gibberish, static or congestion on the comm link. at the moment a rally attempt is made - with yellow R - either the superior might not hear the sitrep (rally call), or encouragement / directives might not be received by the subordinate in need of rally. Just speculating on all that.

Based on my understanding of how rally works, in the latter case the superior would get relieved of rally points ('cause a rally went out from the superior), but the subordinate would fail rally (rally didn't get through). In the former, the superior no get relieved rally points (never heard sitrep needing rally so rally never issued), subordinate fails rally (no rally made it back to subordinate from superior). I have no idea if the game engine is sophistated enough for that.

My understanding of how rally works is that the superior is relieved of rally points for each successful rally. When superior's rally points goes to zero, subordinates can only rally themselves. This implies that the subordinate has to make a 'savings throw' in order for a rally to be successfull. If the subordinate fails its savings throw, the superior loses ALL their rally points (and can not rally any additional units).

Perhaps the game engine is simplistic in the sense that a yellow R decreases the subordinates 'saving throw', i.e., increased odds of rally failure and ANY failed rally will result in the superior losing all their rally points.

I'm just trying to get the handle on what "not reliable" means in comparision to "in contact". Because you can be in contact and fail a rally, no? If the simplistic case is the truth of the matter, that's bad. A faulty radio comm link buried in the middle of a comm net that results in rally failure will ALSO spoil rally for ALL other subordinates that might be in need of rally by that superior; they'll only be rallyable be the next superior subordinate to that one, or themselves.

I could see the simplistic way of doing it too though. Any failed rally regardless of cause - flakey radio comms or not - will result in the superior having a nervous breakdown and be unable to rally anybody else for the rest of the turn.

[Imp]

Okay lets clarify
White is solid contact so I think of voice not radio as it often is but you dont realy need to know.
Yellow is radio only

Radio contact is OK, but the link is not 100% reliable!

It can lose contact as short range radios do.
Modern times this wont happen to often old systems its more common.
This is coded in a 1950s radio is not as good as a 2000 radio plus the country.
USAs radio is probably more reliable than Chinas in 1950 for example plus more units will probably have them.
From the GG

This leader provides rally opportunities
for his subordinates but when 'command' is set to on in the preferences (and only absolute beginners turn this reality setting off!) then he must be

in contact

with his subordinate in order to command him. For units with a radio, this can be anywhere on the map. Provided the radio is working

at that point in time. All radios have a chance not to be in contact, and so are never as reliable as voice range communications.

In game terms this noticably makes modern formations more flexible as they can spread out & still stay in contact more easily.

While I am at it more stuff from the GG.

2) Previously radios were given to almost every platoon leader and section leader no matter what the radio codes in the OOB's were set

to . This has changed in both WinSPMBT and WinSPWW2. Now every company, platoon and section reads the radio codes and if the

OOB's are set up with low radio chance then that's what you'll see in the game. The main HQ unit will always get a radios. This change
affects two things mainly. 1) Calling for artillery will not be as easy as it once was and units from a formation will not be able to wander far
from their "0" unit lead. If they do it becomes harder to rally. This is no different that the way the game has played in the past but in the
past most units had radios. Now there are fewer units that do especially in the WW2 and just post WW2 era. One example would be
snipers. Snipers in the game have acted as scouts, Forward observers and snipers. There are far fewer snipers in this version of the game
that have radio contact with artillery. We expect that this change will take some players who were used to picking almost any command
unit as a Forward observer a bit of time to get used to . The effect is far less in the game on "modern" era armies
3) You will see a further addition to the HQ menu. You will now see ' R ' or ' * ' in the HQ menu list of units. The leaders with the R have a
radio and as always in SP only leaders ( the x0 ) with radios can call arty so if you see a x4 unit with a radio it doesn't mean he can contact
the artillery only leaders can do that. That aspect of the game has not changed but this change makes finding he leaders with the radios
easier. As well these are colour coded and match the messages you would see at the bottom of the battle screen when you click on a unit.
A white ' R ' or ' * ' means " in contact" and all that means is they have C&C link to their immediate superior. A yellow ' R ' or ' * ' means
there is radio contact and a red ' R ' or ' * ' means the unit is out of contact with it's immediate superior. All of this is handy to know at a
glance. If you are playing with
a nation that has few radios you'll probably want to be careful where you put them. This allows you to find them without having to check
every leader in the game

Rally
This is seperate from contact it just allows superiors to assist if you have it.
There is no such thing as rally points units can keep rallying till they fail there rally check.
Unit screen under its name first entry is rally.
Think this decreases by 2 for each attempt in that turn but can keep trying till it fails.
Again from the GG

Back to game detail, still on command and control here. Your commander must be in a fit state to rally subordinates, if he is retreating or worse,

then he has

no command influence, so you may need to rally him first! Also, before you do rally subordinates, check the commander's status, as

if he fails a rally on a subordinate, that is all his rally chances gone for this turn, it can be embarrassing to have rallied all your men back to 'ready'

status, and be about to move forwards to find the platoon (or company!) commander is 'pinned' because you forgot to rally him a little in the

process. Do not just select units and hit the 'R' key is the motto really, look at all the subunits of a formation, and their current state and plan your
rallying. Also note that rallying comes from the top down, hitting the R key on a squad will use the Company Commander's rally attempts then the
Platoon Commander's before trying the squad sergeant's. This may not be what you wanted, again, think a bit before poking that R key. When a
unit fails to rally itself or its subordinate, its rally chance statistic is set to 0 until next turn, this confused some end users who thought the unit was
a hopeless rally case, no, zero just means that it has

failed a rally attempt, and so cannot rally again this turn. The number returns at the

beginning of the next move.

May I suggest you read the game guide I read it years back & have no intrest in going through it again so I get the terminology right.
If you find searching easier in PDF format rather than HTML download it here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45615&highlight=Format
Try searching for radio or rally or doing the same on the forum then asking for clarification if you dont understand.

[raygun]

May I suggest you read the game guide I read it years back & have no intrest in going through it again so I get the terminology right.

Huh? What do you think the purpose of this discussion forum is? So all you guys can discuss how much you know? Know this? Yep. Cool. Know that? Yep. Cool. I bet you know this too, eh? No, that's a new one. Oh, man RTFM!

I am NO stranger to various technical discussion/support forums. While those who ask the same question already asked & answered 100,000,000,000 times on the forum are tedious (and God helps those that help themselves is an excellent guiding principle for one's life - despite such concept being wholly alien to the Gospel - RTFM is nevertheless, and that notwithstanding, very, very sage advice), I absolutely detest and despise - holding those individuals beneath contempt - who try to 'help' by posting a three paragraph derogatory declarative about RTFM. The very least that can be done in such cases - if one truly has an interest in being helpful - at the VERY MINIMUM provide a link where the question has been answered for the 10,000th time (or cite chapter & verse in the manual). You've done none of that except in your latest reply.

You state several times now that you don't care 'bout details and talk down to me, but the details bite you in the derriere every single time.

To whit, from the GG (Unit Information Screen):

Rally An indicator as to how good this leader is at rallying unhappy subordinates, or himself. This number will reduce during a turn as rallies occur, and be set to zero for the rest of the turn if the rally attempt fails.

- [emphasis MINE]

What do you think that means in the context of my confusion about 'in contact' and 'radio' CHQ link? I'd suggest that YOU refrain from providing 'assistance'.

Here's a tip for ya: get a personality. You get ONE chance to make a first impression. You come across as somebody who's only intrest is brow beating those less experienced by blowing them kisses. You know why I say that about you? Because I smell farts.



I've noticed the number of 'views' my three initial questions have garnered grows daily. And yet NOBDDY else has offered any assistance other than Mobhack. So what can I conclude, either they're all just a bunch of noobs who're too afraid of a raptor like you decending onto their necks?

There's SO MANY people posting on the boards nobody can keep track of it all anymore, eh? The big warning sign was the multi-tomed legal document I had to sign prior to being allowed to post here just to ask a freaking question.

[Hermit]

Whoah, Raygun, chill a little.

I think you are a little confused about the game mechanics, but they're not as complicated as you are contemplating. (And to answer one of your questions, yes, I am a noob!) A unit either has a radio or it doesn't. The radio is either working each turn, or it is not. The likelihood that it will work each turn is dependent upon the nationality and year of the battle. Radio contact works anywhere on the map. Voice contact works within 5 hexes. EITHER will make a unit "in contact." Being in contact allows rally attempts from the unit's leader, and if the leader is in contact with his superior, the bottom unit can rally from the leader's leader, on up the chain. Attempts start at the highest part of the chain first. As far as I know, that's the plain and dirty of the game mechanics of contact, which determines who can rally whom. I also believe that you are correct that each successful rally attempt lowers the leader's rally number slightly, for that turn. An unsuccessful attempt drops it to zero for the turn => no more rallying for him that turn.

[raygun]

A unit either has a radio or it doesn't

The radio is either working each turn, or it is not.

If the radio is not working at the beginning of the turn, what is the point of 'radio contact'? Wouldn't that be a red R or *?

What the heck is yellow anything? I could speculate that a yellow * means its too loud - or far away - to hear voice comms w/100% accuracy. But I don't even konw if yellow star is possible (sounds like an exe hack).

I see 'probabilities' brought into the mix several times. When do these 'probabilities' manifest themselves?

If I have a star I don't have a radio. What color is my star? I guess it would depend how far away from the boss I'd be, eh? If I have a star and I'm 6 hex away from my boss, the star be red. Mooo?

Let me ask: is it possible to have a red R and be 2 hex away from the boss?

I pretty much understand EVERYTHING after this statement:

Radio contact works anywhere on the map. Voice contact works within 5 hexes. EITHER will make a unit "in contact." I have units 200 hex from their CHQ and are white R (in contact). I have units that are yellow R.

I'm fully cognizent that a * means you aint got a radio to be even getting any bars whatsoever; if you're farther than 4 hex from the bossman, you're on your own w/respect to rally. So what is a yellow R in the context of rally? What else does 'contact' (or lack thereof) have to do with anything except for rally? I understand that the player can turn a unit over to AI and CHQ experience plays a role in that then (so radio / verbal comms link may be important there).

It almost seems as if I'm hearing: Don't worry 'bout nuthin but red anything. As long as it aint red, you're good.

[Imp]

1) Why should/would I go through the game guide or search the forum when you can do that just as easily. If there was a suitable post I could remember would have mentioned but gave you the link for GG PDF to get you started as thought that might be useful as from memory most of its in there.

2)

You state several times now that you don't care 'bout details and talk down to me, but the details bite you in the derriere every single time.

To whit, from the GG (Unit Information Screen):


Quote:

Yes stated at least twice don't care about the details, why because you only need to worry about out of contact the game does the rest no need to over complicate.

Did state last post

Rally

This is seperate from contact it just allows superiors to assist if you have it.
There is no such thing as rally points units can keep rallying till they fail there rally check.
Unit screen under its name first entry is rally.
Think this decreases by 2 for each attempt in that turn but can keep trying till it fails.
Again from the GG

So I said THINK the number is reduced by 2 each attempt did not bother mentioning reduced to zero on fail as that was included in the exert of the GG I provided directly below it.

Talking down what because I suggest you read a bit then ask for clarification or asked you to answer your own to see if you understood Mobhacks reply. Also suggested in spotter thread you just tried it & it would answer your question, seemed to.

Yes I can be a bit abrupt answering same old stuff but at least I try 50 odd thanks outweighs the couple of whines but as per your wishes I will ignore you from now on.

Last thing again Contact & Rally are 2 seperate things the first allows the second by that units superiors.

[Wdll]

****ty attitude aside, I am not sure what you are asking exactly.
A unit with a radio can have contact with its superior with its radio or if the superior is close enough, by shouting/etc.
When said unit you press the R for Rally, then when the unit try to contact its superior will do so and hopefully get some help. To get help it needs the contact I mentioned. There are two ways that it won't get Rally help from superior. One, if the unit is out of contact. Two, if it is in radio contact but when you try to ask for help (pressing R) there is an interruption (which is not shown as specific message of failed communication but as a fail at rallying or even while you see your unit is in contact with its superior, you still don't get any help because of said failure).

Even if there is contact 100% working, the rally can still fail. Such is life.

[Marek_Tucan]

Yep, not everyone in the squad under MG fire might be that keen to listen to that *** Bn Commander shouting at them through PL leader's radio to charge

Btw toying in an experimental scen with using comms for artillery management, so that say mortars attached to support a company have no radio and can be called only by the given company (granted they maintain contact with Coy commander).
or that a howitzer battery (on board) has to have contact with bty commander or else FOs cannot direct them.