obat44 - West Germany

[DRG]

The problem I have with the Puma ATM is there are only drawings of it. Nobody seems to have an actual photo of one in the field ( at least, I haven't found one yet ). Even the dimensions are listed as "Unspecified". It's hard to build an Icon from that. I can guess but for example a Warrior weighs about 23 tons. The STRYKER about the same ( a little less ) The Puma will be 31 tons and 43 with the armour package. That's a lot of weight for 8 troops so it would be nice to know width and length

Don

[PlasmaKrab]

Has any single one prototype been built yet? The thing is meant to be fielded in 2009 (after the German future warrior program), so it may be still mainly 3D mockups and maybe some plant layouts.

The prolem is the same with many future combat programs, the US FCS for one. How should this one be drawn into an icon yet?

Maybe some provisional versions could be done?

[Arralen]

Puma Info
technical data
max. construction weight 43 t
weight (Schutzstufe A) 31,45 t
weigth (Schutzstufe C) 40,7 t
crew 9 (6+3)
max roadspeed 70 km/h
power to weigth ratio 20 kW/t
length 7.330 mm
width 3.430 mm
hight (overall) 3.050 mm
from http://www.kmweg.de/Schuezenpanzer/s...a_content.html

Those graphics from http://www.freundeskreis-panzergrenadiere.de/132.0.html should be big enough to make an icon ?!

Puma Gun
Rheinmetall Waffe Munition Mauser MK 30-2 (as in Ulan/Austria and Pizarro/Spain), max range 3000m
2 types of ammo:
APFSDS-T-Munition, 63mm HRA, should penetrate M60 up to 1.500m
ABM/KETF-Munition, preprogrammed airburst out to 2500m, very high HEkill
http://www.rheinmetall-detec.de/inde...515&query=Puma

Puma Prototype
A first one should be finished this year, but isn't up to now, AFAIK.

[DRG]

Arralen said:
Puma Info
technical data
max. construction weight 43 t
weight (Schutzstufe A) 31,45 t
weigth (Schutzstufe C) 40,7 t
crew 9 (6+3)
max roadspeed 70 km/h
power to weigth ratio 20 kW/t
length 7.330 mm
width 3.430 mm
hight (overall) 3.050 mm

The problem here is the model is not specified so is it 3.43 m wide with or without the extra 12 tons of armour? Those are *probably* the specs for the A model but that's an assumption. From the looks of the drawings the armour package could easily add the equivalent of an extra 2 pixels to either side of the Icon and 2 pixels may sound like nothing but it makes a big difference when the vehicle is only 48 pixels long and 23 wide. When you add 2 pixels to the width of each side it adds nearly 20% to pre armour package width. If those numbers are for the C model then we get into more assumptions making the A version narrower

The other problem is there isn't even a runner built and details can change a lot between the drawing board and the production vehicle. The German parliament may have approved it but governments change and although this *seems* likely --so have other things in other nations. In a couple of years there will be firmer information

Don

[Suurajatollah]

Thanks for clearing things!

Heh! I tried that English page but it didn't work properly. I don't know much German so I tried to figure those missing units from the German pages. Which was difficult!

http://www.deutschesheer.de/relaunch...829LC297PTILDE

These are, as well as the various snipers, pretty generic units which do no exists in that form. I'm not sure how to "tie" them to real units, and therefore, which quality to asign to them.
In general, I would leave them as they are and rate the "normal" troops waayyy lower .. a good deal of those conscripts are "Kampftrinker" (does anyone know to translate that?) and the officers jerks, but nothing more.

I have served in Finnish defense forces for six months and I must say that if Finlands base experience is 75 so should be Germanys too! Still I disagree with you that those experience and morale mods should be untouched. In general scouts have those 3 and so should mountains scouts have. And in general rangers have 5 - 15 and so should WGs mountain troops have. WG is the only country I've found that doesn't have it. Although haven't espesially looked for it.

Back to those missing units. I feel that following units are missing:

* Leichter Transporthubschrauber UH-1D
http://www.deutschesheer.de/C1256B6C...8CH9Q307SWINDE
* Mehrzweckhubschrauber NH90
http://www.deutschesheer.de/C1256B6C...8CGMJ417SWINDE
* There are 4 different trucks: 5t, 7t,10t and 15t
*Motorcycle scouts??
http://www.deutschesheer.de/C1256B6C...8CH26459SWINDE
*Mungo??
http://www.deutschesheer.de/C1256B6C...VNFEY332RHAHDE

I searched all these in that page I mentioned... with my poor German.

BTW are those Para ATVs really expired after year 2005?

[PlasmaKrab]

A few points I came across through the German OOB:

Fennek first:

Isn't 1998 quite early for a service date?
From the official BW site, I'd tend to say 2001 at first.

Furthermore, it seems that a FO version (VB) is planned for the near future. Sensor suite stays the same, armament is changed to a MG3 AAMG.

I am searching for an official source about this, but to no avail yet. Here are some pics:
http://www.primeportal.net/apc/fennek.htm
And I got a source from the German publication "Soldat und Technik", April 2003: "Die modernste Artillerie der Welt und ihre Defizite", stating that as of 2002, 38 Fennek VB were due to be fielded by January 2004.

And what about the designation?
I heard something about "SpPz-2" (Spähpanzer, armored scout vehicle), but the official seems to be still "Spähwagen leicht 4 Rad FENNEK", which is quite hard to sum up.


Other matter is the Wiesel:

AFAIK the MK in "Wiesel MK" stands for "MaschinenKanone", that is, Autocannon.
In that perspective the current "Wiesel 1 MK TOW" in the game sounds strange?
I am pretty sure about this, but surely there are German veterans around here with better info on this.

Cheers all,

Plasma

[Alpha]

Well there are much probs in the german OOB.

i corrected a few ones:

a) Mountain troops now have better exp + mor than normal grunts. they are now a little weaker than para but better than normal
b) Border guards ( which is meant "bundesgrenzschutz" i think ) should have also a bit better exp + mor then normal troops since these were no conscripts. Also they were in service minimun untill the fall of the wall.
c) PZH 2000 has now 1 more ROF ( also the question was asked above, if it should be also a bit more accurate and therefore a bit more expansive ? )
d) SP arty prices a bit changed ( 109 A3 was a bit too pricey for example )
e) Dornier 205 heli is now correct named "Bell UH 1D"
f) The ammo load f. SP mortars is correctd ( for example the hotchkiss SPmortar should have fewer ammo than the M113 )
g) The Luchs is now 1 size smaller and much faster than in the orig. OOB. there it was only 23 fast, much too low !

Shall i upload this OOB here ? I mean it is the minimun that everyone should have.

But there are more things that need to be looked at:

a) Missing troops: KSK commandos
b) Missing troops: Heimatschutztruppe
c) Missing vehicle: Scorpion minelayer
e) Missing weapon: Bunkerfaust
f) Missing weapon: Fliegerfaust 2
g) Wrong weapon: Armbrust for engineers (??) INFO ??
h) Is the 120mm mortar Wiesel already at the troops ?? I know it is planned.

Also i wonder why have the L44 120mm only 11 accuracy while the russian 125mm has 13 ? Thought german weapon is better than russian ?

Also i think some of the russian stuff should be a tad cheaper...

Thanx. Please discuss ! Also feel free to add above missing troops esp. the KSK !

@ plasma: Think ur right with your points also !

[PlasmaKrab]

Alpha:

a) KSK commandos: are you sure that would be useful in the game? heavy enough assets for conventional warfare?

c) Scorpion minelayer: no. no other answer, no way, that's what the team says, if you want to ask them. Too much disequilibrating in the gameplay, FASCAM is meant to be sufficient. Of course you can mod what you want for your own pleasure, but don't await onboard mineplanters in the official version

e) Bunkerfaust: confirmation about it being in service in the BW?

f) Fliegerfaust 2 = FIM-92 Stinger. Just the same, check the official webpage. Maybe the name should be changed to "Fliegerfaust 2" for the weapon or unit, if it is the official name from now on. First time I hear it though!

h) planned, should check the service date. BTW, no other useable Wiesel II versions in service, only SAM, engineer recon and ambulance AFAIK.

And are you sure that the "border section" of the game is what you think it is? Apparently the only link with the BGS is a possible faraway filiation. The Bundeswehr was founded in 1955, right? So any units before are to be considered out of any BW context, any current context actually.

And about gun accuracy, the discussion is going on (hotly), and the most reasonable pointI heard is that the FC and rangefinder values influence the result much more than actual gun accuracy, which matches the real stuff.

Oh, and generally, all the prices are automaticaly calculated on common bases, which means that the prices are meant to be fair considering the content.

Otherwise, I think you got several points!

Cheers,

Plasma

[Alpha]

>>>>> KSK commandos: are you sure that would be useful in the game? heavy enough assets for conventional warfare?

mhh.. other nations also have commando troops in oob. like russian speznas, SAS etc...

>>>>>e) Bunkerfaust: confirmation about it being in service in the BW?

i read a article in the web somewhere. this is just a pz. faust3 with special warhead for bunkerbusting. so only the name and warhead must be changed i guess.

>>>f) Fliegerfaust 2 = FIM-92 Stinger. Just the same, check the official webpage. Maybe the name should be changed to "Fliegerfaust 2" for the weapon or unit, if it is the official name from now on. First time I hear it though!

okay, then i think the fliegerfaust 1 must be the redeye. fliegerfaust is def. the "off. name" since before 2 weeks or so i was at luftwaffe show where they had this weapon.

>>>>h) planned, should check the service date. BTW, no other useable Wiesel II versions in service, only SAM, engineer recon and ambulance AFAIK.

well any knowledgeable person could check when it could be becoming serviceable and add it.

>>>>And are you sure that the "border section" of the game is what you think it is? Apparently the only link with the BGS is a possible faraway filiation. The Bundeswehr was founded in 1955, right? So any units before are to be considered out of any BW context, any current context actually.

mhh.. don´t know. it is also not that important. best would be to delete the border section at all, since it gives not much more value or differences to normal light infantry.


so if any person with more time to research the stuff reads this, would be fine. i will make 3-4 changes to my oob and post it here so everyone can use this as a base.

i also think there should be a special air assault ( or sumthing like that ) section that fit´s in wiesel apc....

thanx....for contribution.

[Alpha]

http://www.panzerbaer.de/archiv/seite_f.htm

early 50ties bundesgrenzschutz soldiers....

http://www.panzerbaer.de/archiv/bw_f...ewe_2004-a.htm

these some exercise photos from 2004.

excellent site + pics IMHO.