CM arty modeling

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Kartoffel

Just curious, but does anyone know what the exact area of a SP hex is? I know the width, which is 50m, but I don't know whether that width refers to the longest line of bisection or the shortest line. If I knew which bisection the 50m refers to I could figure out the area myself.

K.

Assuming I understand the question correctly the game uses a hexagon that's 50m from side to side as it's base, that's to say 25m from the center to any of the six sides, no clue offhand how long each side is, or what the total enclosed area is (my math skills aren't up to calculating this sort of thing without looking up the formulas).

[Wdll]

I would be willing to accept continuing using CM artillery if each "shot" from such hit only the units in the hex it hit. If you turn fast artillery OFF and watch how it fires and what it hits, it is getting to be way too...unrealistic?

Every X is a hex that one shot from such artillery will kill or heavily damage enemy MBTs Y is the actual hex the artillery landed on.

XXXXX
XXXXX
XXYXX
XXXXX
XXXXX

Since every hex is 50 meters that means that a single shot of CM artillery can and will destroy MBTs (and other of course) units 125 meters in all directions. It's just insane.
IMO the area of effect/kill for CM artillery should be minimised to just the hex it hits which is 50 meters! It seems that where a regular HE shell could kill from the blast someone troops or affect their morale, 125-150m away from where it fell, the CM artillery gets the same bonus in destroying armoured targets. I can understand this might be hardcoded or something, but it just doesn't feel right.
It's one thing if several "shots" hit nearby hexes, but for one "shot" (yes I know they are submunitions but they do not spread into such a huge area!)
Remember, these are not huge bombs dropped from bombers.

[Imp]

I have just tested this quicky save included & cant see a problem look at the results

Arty USA Paladin vs Challenger One
Fired 4 Paladins one each at tank in centre of group.
All Paladins used 0.5 so only one shell.

Results using one shell only
In target hex 2 destroyed 2 immobile.
2 Hexes away 1 out of 10 immobile
3 Hexes away no effect.
So 4 shells gave 2 kill & 3 immobile results.

Game saved here.

If carry on & hit at 0.0 so 4 shells the carnage is far worse from watching.
Tanks in target or adjacent hex stand a good chance of being damaged or destroyed.
Those 2 hexes away stand a very good chance of nothing or minor suppresion.

Obvious conclusion keep them 2 hexes apart & wont do much damage, to me this makes it a deterent forcing you to keep dispersed therefore making combat maneuveres harder.
Yes it covers an area of 5 hexes across when it should really be 4 & a bit but the chances are will be unscathed in outer hexes.

If you are talking MLRS first result I found on You Tube for TOS-1 as you mentioned it earlier http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgJOEtSMhdc
As you can see quite a large area I would say the problem is more people use them far more often than they really would be due to cost etc. But thats true of most things from best IFVs MBTs attack helos planes etc.

[Suhiir]

TOS-1 = ouch !

[Wdll]

You fired once and that's it?

Hell, I bet that 1 out of who knows how many, it might not even destroy any tank...that won't mean that CM can't destroy.

I am talking about hundreds of battles of usage of CM artillery. Not a single shot and quit the game.
Try 10 times with same conditions, see what happens each time.

[Imp]

That was 4 shots of 1 shot each since you were complaining what a single round did, normally of course you fire more than 1 shot. I cannot be bothered to test further yes next time might get 4 kills & 2 immobile results. Its still not the devastating weapon you are making it out to be after all thats 4 shots now I will take 4 with a modern MBT for 3 kills. Possibly try adjusting the Pen level to 40 or so for even less effect vs units on outer circle if you think its to effective.
Banning though changes the entire nature of the battle in my opinon as if CM arty is possible it changes tactics by causing dispersal both in attack & deffence making doing both far more difficult. After all its useless if it misses so if you think your force is spotted dont do the obvious, bit trickier vs planes mind & a general "rule" anyway.
You have to judge when its safe to group up or worth the risk & if he guessed right what your up to it hurts. With CM arty only I end up plotting far more than firing as decide target is not worthwhile as have been second guessed.
When we played you restricted it to onboard only no reloads something like 50 CM rounds only, this made it easy as know what you have once fired. So use tactics to combat & once it fires I know elsewhere I can bunch up for a turn hence you only hit one or 2 tanks a game. My CM then fired taking out most of your CM regulary letting me operate normally while you had the threat of my remaining shells hanging over your force.
Hardly ever use it on armour unless dug in or offer up a target thats just to good to ignore as hitting fast targets as in vehicles is tricky vs a human, a mortar will prep an armored force & its escort for attack nearly as well. But the mortar will not do the job effectivly on targets like SAMS Arty or that ATGM that is stalling the attack.
Not being able to deal with these fast leaves your armour air vulnerable to attack & hence loses.

[Wdll]

OK, first of all, you are not talking to some stupid f***. Yes under normal operation you will fire more than one shell, but that means ****, if one shot can do the damage it can.
If you cannot be bothered to do the test, then it is not a test and I cannot be bothered to read the rest of your post.
but I will because I am very bored.

This is not about tactics, so stop kissing the *** of certain people. It doesn't even affect me directly since as I have mentioned I have stopped using CM artillery, not because I had an issue with it, but because most of my opponents did and I can't be bothered to remember different rules for different opponents.
As I said, tactics mean nothing if the problem is what it is. The fact that you can get away from it if you move etc etc, means NOTHING if one system is overpowering. It's irrelevant.

[Imp]

This thread was started to see if anyone had a better way of modeling its effects. You think its to powerfull I suggested a way to try & reduce its effects setting Pen to 40 as MAY reduce effects of outer blast circle if assume half or less strength while having little effect on target hex, failing that as a thought you could try reducing warhead size by 1 or 2 to reduce area of effect for gun launched shells but the area may be an atributte of CM arty
Also suggested like any weapon system tactics can negate it to an extent probably more so with arty as have to predict where you will be & commit with no chance to change your mind mid turn.
You moan about how it works & it seems to bother you even if indirectly so why not see if you can do better as you say you are bored.
As its weapon data you will need to use Mobhack > weapons tab then change Pen & or warhead save & test, send fix to your opponents or post as an alternative for people to try it & comment.
Appologise in advance if suggesting this offends its not meant to this is how I would go about fixing it if I thought it was to powerfull. Might even agree with you to an extent that howitzer launched stuff might be slightly to powerfull but not to an extent I can be bothered to try & research it.

[Wdll]

I can't start changing the effects of weapons to whatever I feel like since I am playing with other humans PBEM games. Thanks for the suggestion.
It DOESN'T BOTHER ME.
Just forget it. Don't be bothered to do anything.

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Imp

This thread was started to see if anyone had a better way of modeling its effects. You think its to powerfull I suggested a way to try & reduce its effects setting Pen to 40 as MAY reduce effects of outer blast circle if assume half or less strength while having little effect on target hex, failing that as a thought you could try reducing warhead size by 1 or 2 to reduce area of effect for gun launched shells but the area may be an atributte of CM arty.

Assuming I understand thew way the game code handles Pen and warhead size I'm thinking reducing Pen will "only" effect the probability of a hit damaging/destroying something. This would have no effect on the effect radius.
Now adjusting the warhead size does effect the radius. Now I also know adjusting the warhead size also various other effects as well so more experimenting will be needed to get the "proper" effects.

The other thing is ... it may be that setting a weapon to WC=14 (Cluster Bomb, MLRS) automatically means the effect radius is "X" and the warhead size has no effect on the radius.

Again, experimentation is called for.