Polish and Bulgarian OOBs - Page 2

Kenny · #1 July 5th, 2012, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG

Based on what was discussed months ago and ignoring any " What-if-in-war-Poland-bought-better-ammo" hypotheticals what's there now in the OOB's represents what is available in real life......

Quote:

Unfortunately, as for now PT-91s use only obsolete and poor models of Soviet ammunition from the 70s - first generation used with T-72. The best APFSDS is steel BM-15 (apart from it, worse BM-9, 12, 17), the only HEAT are BK-12 and BK-14.

In 1998 there was shown more modern APFSDS Pronit Rys, with Israeli tungsten core - but reportedly only a small party of 1000 were made, due to unsatisfactory penetration (500-540 mm RHA, worsening in frost), and they aren't used in practice. There were also developed one or two Polish rounds, but didn't reach production stage.

There were no new Heat rounds bought nor even proposed and it seems, that no development nor import in this field is planned. As for now, there are no announced plans to buy new APFSDS in following years, but it is possible.

So, tanks with old guns should be available from beginning until end.

.....and until I see information that improves on that from actual credited sources I can cross reference, that's the way it's going to stay.

Don

Just my opinion Sir,but I rather like the way SPMBT is at present and the fact it's going to stay that way.

I just wonder what part of the word no is it that some people do not understand.

FASTBOAT TOUGH · #2 July 14th, 2012, 02:34 AM

I don't know if this helps or not. The ZPS site is about useless as it doesn't provide any specs at all, except to show we make 120mm/125mm tank ammo and here are the types we make. What is clear is the 125mm round made from ~1991 to 2000 wasn't that great with a universally excepted penetration rate (On the net from all source types.) of 460mm @ 2km. In 2001 with changes made to both the penetrator and propellant casing the penetration rate was increased to 540mm @ 2km (Again from all source types.) though less than a handful indicated a range of penetration from 500mm to 560mm @ 2km. 540mm seems to be within the margin of error and preponderance of sites and pages gone through. There were "shadows" of information that improvements were ethier made (Within the last couple of years.) or are being made to improve the penetration of the 125mm rounds in the near future, "shadows" are just that and there is already way too much speculation going on around here already.
http://www.zps.com.pl/en/ammunition125mm.html
http://articles.janes.com/articles/J...nd-Poland.html
http://articles.janes.com/articles/J...on-Poland.html

I don't know if the JANES site provides any further insight (Current from May 2012.) to the Polish 125mm ammo issue or not, but it does seem to raise further questions (Or not.) on how effective Russian 125mm ammo was during the 80's to early 90's.

Regards,
Pat

Kenny · #3 July 14th, 2012, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

I don't know if this helps or not. The ZPS site is about useless as it doesn't provide any specs at all, except to show we make 120mm/125mm tank ammo and here are the types we make. What is clear is the 125mm round made from ~1991 to 2000 wasn't that great with a universally excepted penetration rate (On the net from all source types.) of 460mm @ 2km. In 2001 with changes made to both the penetrator and propellant casing the penetration rate was increased to 540mm @ 2km (Again from all source types.) though less than a handful indicated a range of penetration from 500mm to 560mm @ 2km. 540mm seems to be within the margin of error and preponderance of sites and pages gone through. There were "shadows" of information that improvements were ethier made (Within the last couple of years.) or are being made to improve the penetration of the 125mm rounds in the near future, "shadows" are just that and there is already way too much speculation going on around here already.
http://www.zps.com.pl/en/ammunition125mm.html
http://articles.janes.com/articles/J...nd-Poland.html
http://articles.janes.com/articles/J...on-Poland.html

I don't know if the JANES site provides any further insight (Current from May 2012.) to the Polish 125mm ammo issue or not, but it does seem to raise further questions (Or not.) on how effective Russian 125mm ammo was during the 80's to early 90's.

Regards,
Pat

Pat, this reply is no reflection upon you but just a supplement in the spirit of your reply to the unhappy campers in SPMBT world. AFAIC,if it ain't broke,don't fix it and please don't waste your time trying to placate those that don't appreciate what I consider to be the epitome of wargamming,and a free one at that.

AFAIC,this whole deal is a moot point. This wonderful battle simulator is suited for anyone to customise their tastes to play against the computer. Heck,I even have my own personal OBAT to play against the A-I( only the U.S 012),though the difference versus the recent 6.0 Obat ugprade to that military force only differs to the tune of maybe 0.05% overall,just based on my experience in the U.S. Army. Don and Andy spent many days and nights over the years trying to get the whole 9 yards as correct as possible. IMO they have succeeded way beyond what I thought possible 10 years ago. Nobody is perfect but IMO they are closer to it any anyone else in the gaming genre and once again,I like this sim just how it's being presented in 6.0. If you are unhappy,play against the A-1 with your own Obat(fill in the blanks as to how it should be). I believe in letting Jesse rob the the train however he wants to.

Other than my experiences as to observing with telescopes and my obligations as a moderator on a telescope forum,SPMBT has become a close 2nd as to gobbling up all of my spare time. This simulator is that important to me. Grand Prix Legends is a distant 3rd,and do I love that one as well.

My 2 cents.

blazejos · #4 July 19th, 2012, 10:26 PM

Hello

What do you think about add a COIN fighter to polish and Indian OOB

TS-11 Iskra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL_TS-11_Iskra

Indian air force already retried this aircrafts in december 2004 but they are still used by Polish without prospect to fast replace by new trainers.

In game are already icons in shp file
{12131, -1}, //4531 TS-11 Iskra bis
{12132, -1}, //4532 TS-11 Iskra bis (Poland)
{12133, -1}, //4533 TS-11 Iskra bis (India)
{12134, -1}, //4534 TS-11 Iskra bis B (Poland)
{12135, -1}, //4535 TS-11 Iskra bis B (Poland)
{12136, -1}, //4536 TS-11 Iskra bis D(Poland tan-brown-green-grey)
{12137, -1}, //4537 TS-11 Iskra bis DF (Poland)

There are even two photos pm29136.lbm and pm29137.lbm already in game

Pibwl · #5 August 8th, 2012, 11:25 AM

Hello,

After a loong break...

Quote:

Originally Posted by blazejos

Hello

What do you think about add a COIN fighter to polish and Indian OOB

TS-11 Iskra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL_TS-11_Iskra

Though it isn't considered as COIN in Poland (there's no such need), it can carry up to 4x8 57mm rockets. If we have a nice icon already, why not use it?

Michal

SaS TrooP · #6 July 5th, 2012, 03:33 PM

So its settled then. If you dispose good sources for that I have support leaving it like that. Still, points 4 and 5 are most important for me. Will see what happens in next version of the game.

DRG · #7 July 6th, 2012, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaS TrooP

..................Still, points 4 and 5 are most important for me. Will see what happens in next version of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaS TrooP

4. Dezamet produces advanced warheads since early '80s. I dont understand why LWP lost PG-7VL (penetration of 50cm as far as I know remember) to favour of PG-7V warhead (33-35cm pen). This touched most of late cold war era units, no sense giving all possible IDs here.
Idea: Suggested switching RPG-7 --> RPG-7V for OOB 2 Units: too much to list, would have to edit OOB on the run

:

This would be a lot easier if you stopped guessing about things and read those 103 posts I told you to read

The Poles "Lost" the "RPG-7V 93mm" ( weapon 19 ) with 50cm of penetation because.........

Quote:

- there's no sign of usage of PG-7VL rounds with 500 penetration.

We N E V E R had the Poles with the "PG-7VL rounds " but we did have "RPG-7V 93mm" ( weapon 19 ) with 50cm pen ( which is what he is refering to ...)

However you DO GET the RPG-7MT with 50 cm of multi-charge heat penetration starting 2007 for mainly para/SF units that you didn't have before ( the weapons was upgraded to MCH for ver6 )

Don

DRG · #8 July 20th, 2012, 07:47 AM

I'll put it on the list to investigate

Don

Pibwl · #9 October 18th, 2024, 03:07 PM

As for Bulgaria, I've just found an article, that they modified MiG-17F to carry 4x 250 kg bombs (twice as many as unit 390) and used them from 1970 until 1986. Regular unit 390 was used at least until 1969 then.

Alternatively, at least 2 UB-16-57 rocket pods could have been carried (2x16 rockets ie. 2x weapon 186 4x57 mm rockets x 4)

399, 400 MiG-23 - should be attack MiG-23B variant, used no earlier than mid-1976 (now 1973)

Pibwl · #10 October 20th, 2024, 11:52 AM

One more thing: it seems, that at least late MiG-17s used in attack regiments were camouflaged (photo in an article), so icon 2907 is the best.

(On the other hand: precise parachute bombs (which I guess is weapon PB-250 of unit 392 MiG-17PF and 404 Su-25) were rather very uncommon in Eastern Bloc...)