Tip: Template for reducing late game MM hell

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by Stavis_L

Just FYI, there are 67 vanilla nations currently, between all 3 eras. So at 10 provinces per, that's a 670 (!) province map, assuming all nations are playing...

That's why I specifically said "all nations (from one era)" and not "all nations (from all eras)" or simply "all nations". As having just all the nations from a single era in a game should fit into the 250 province limit I suggested, regardless of the actual era. Although maybe I should have said "all nations (from just one era)" to avoid confusion.

An all nations, all eras game would be insane MM regardless of the settings.

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by Calahan

Maybe some of the popular Level 3/4 anti-rush spells could be reduced to level 1/2 for games with a difficult or very difficult research setting.

I *really* want to see this mod. Harder research without the rush-vantage would be an ideal solution, IMHO. Ugh... Just what I need to start up my university studies, a modding project. Well, at least this one will be quite easy, just moving the spell researchlevels around.

Anyone intrested, keep an eye at the modding section, I'll start up a brainstorming thread within few days.

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Calahan

Although at least for me, RAND games do result in a lot more thinking time being required, as instead of just asking your neighbour "Hey, are you going to attack me, or can we get an NAP?" you have to constantly re-assess every turn which nations may be attacking you that turn. So if thinking time is considered a part of MM, then RAND games don't always result in reduced MM.

But that is strategy at a macro level, absolutely not micro management. Macro level strategising isn't something anyone wants to cut back on.

I prefer RAND style (or at least no diplomacy) games because they reduce the horrible 'nap with neighbours, 2 on 1 the weakest guy, repeat' thing you get with diplomacy. Just as you described. I don't think it's so much a cut back on MM, just a way to reduce slightly turtley strats which all seem to lead right to MM hell endgames.

[Psycho]

I agree with removing gem gens, but some nations will need to get compensation for that. Reducing the cost of Kailasa summons that someone suggested is a good idea. Other nations need similar boosts.

Banning some nasty globals like AN or AC is also a good idea.

A map for 12 players is the biggest I've ever played, because I never wanted to own too much provinces in the late game. A lot of larger games break due to players losing interest. I'd say 12 is a good upper limit.

With other things I don't agree. Low gem income is not a good idea. The problem is not in abundance of gems, but in the fact that CBM makes some spells too cheap.

Also, removing higher research levels would remove much fun from the game - bad idea. For the games where you want longer midgame, just set difficult research. Personally, I like the pace when games reach endgame sooner and finish sooner.

There is no need to ban any nation, unless it is considered overpowering. Just don't pick the nation you find needs too much MM. In RAND games, you should be able to give a list of nations that you don't want to play.

[WraithLord]

vfb:
"1. Do you mean to reduce micro for other nations, so they don't have to set up a bunch of temples/preachers? Or is it the blood hunting/slave buses micro? One thing you might want to do is eliminate all blood mage summons. Otherwise they are almost as bad as gem generators. Maybe make 10 unique Vampire Counts or something, and 6 unique Vamp Lords, and something similar for Mictlan's summons?"
Reduce both the nation MM and the MM it induces on other nations.

Kuritza: I understand your sentiment. Nations that need gem gens to survive should be addressed in CBM mode or something. The MM hell they cause plus the income inflation loop-back with wishing is big no-no for me.

Mardagg: Yes difficult research instead of research cap.

Calahan:
"2. Low gem income settings - Not so sure about this. I know I spend a lot of time fine-tuning scripts and battle positions for any large armies I have, and any lack of gems just means the armies get bigger and the scripting/positioning will take longer due to the delayed transition to Thug/SC."
I think army mgmt is much less MM than forging/rituals. You can copy scripts and give in 10 secs complicated scripts to lots of mages in army.

"Maybe some of the popular Level 3/4 anti-rush spells could be reduced to level 1/2 for games with a difficult or very difficult research setting."
That would be great!

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by Burnsaber

I *really* want to see this mod. Harder research without the rush-vantage would be an ideal solution, IMHO. Ugh... Just what I need to start up my university studies, a modding project. Well, at least this one will be quite easy, just moving the spell researchlevels around.

Anyone intrested, keep an eye at the modding section, I'll start up a brainstorming thread within few days.

Yeah, I much prefer high research level myself in games, but always wary of the huge bonus it gives to rush nations. Have picked up some modding skills myself (thanks to you Burns ) so was going to look into this once my current high number of games dropped a bit. But would be more than happy to see a genuine modder undertake the project though.

Not that I want you to think I'd push you into doing that it in any way Burns

[Calahan pushs Bursnaber very hard in the make "Difficult research with Anti-Rush spells tweak mod" direction]

Originally Posted by Sombre

But that is strategy at a macro level, absolutely not micro management. Macro level strategising isn't something anyone wants to cut back on.

I prefer RAND style (or at least no diplomacy) games because they reduce the horrible 'nap with neighbours, 2 on 1 the weakest guy, repeat' thing you get with diplomacy. Just as you described. I don't think it's so much a cut back on MM, just a way to reduce slightly turtley strats which all seem to lead right to MM hell endgames.

I don't consider additional thinking time to be a part of MM either, but I am sure there are some player who would. Which is why I gave it a mention.

Since losing the ability to seal up several borders for X turns with a simple "Do you want an NAP" message, would certainly constitute extra work to some players. With "extra work" being incorrectly translated as meaning "extra MM".

You are of course correct saying it is a macro level decision. And Dominions is probably the wrong game for people if they don't like things revolving aroung making macro decisions.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by WraithLord

Calahan:
"2. Low gem income settings - Not so sure about this. I know I spend a lot of time fine-tuning scripts and battle positions for any large armies I have, and any lack of gems just means the armies get bigger and the scripting/positioning will take longer due to the delayed transition to Thug/SC."
I think army mgmt is much less MM than forging/rituals. You can copy scripts and give in 10 secs complicated scripts to lots of mages in army.

ooohhh, I must be super anal on the fine tuning MM then. No wonder my turns always take me so long I'm always tinkering with individual mage scripts, mixing up casting orders every turn in case anyone seen my fights, tweaking placements to avoid opponents settings aimed against my last know placements. If I tried I'm sure I could happily spend half an hour just arranging 3 mages and 40 troops.

Knew I was obsessive about MM, but guess I didn't realise just how high my level was

And I find forging and ritual casting to be a lot easier MM wise by keeping notes each turn, and simply ticking off things as I issue their casting or forging.

Originally Posted by WraithLord

"Maybe some of the popular Level 3/4 anti-rush spells could be reduced to level 1/2 for games with a difficult or very difficult research setting."
That would be great!

[Wraithlord pushes Burnsaber in the make "Difficult research with Anti-Rush spells tweak mod" direction]

[WraithLord]

updated first post

[chrispedersen]

I also have a component called...

NoGenCompensation.

It boosts the nations most affected by the loss of generators - abysia, agartha, oceania, yomi.

Sorry haven't gotten to machaka or bandar log. I didn't think bandar were particularly bad.

[Zeldor]

I didn't read through posts here, so I will just comment what you made in first one.

Mandatory ones:

1. Gem gens banned - of course, it should be part of CBM really.
2. Why? It's nothing about map size. It's about number of players and victory conditions. I wouldn't join 200 prov map with 30 players. 15 provs per player is what I like. And reasonable victory - 30-40% caps.
3. No way. You want what? Bless nations only games? You cannot play difficult res without serious rebalancing. I will never join a game like that. Playing normal nation would be unfun. Playing bless nation would feel like cheating.
4. Sure, CBM needs more extreme tweaks, but they won't be popular. Like more expensive Mind Hunts and tarts.
5. Nope. Low magic settings are simply boring. Put here instead a mod to ban overpowered sites [discount ones]. Even banning dwarven hammers would make more sense.

Optional ones are well... just for those that like that format. I like diplomacy, but I love RAND too. But I would stop playing Dominions if I had to play only RAND games.

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Psycho

With other things I don't agree. Low gem income is not a good idea. The problem is not in abundance of gems, but in the fact that CBM makes some spells too cheap.

Wait, what?

Which problem? The problem of micromanagement? Which spells made cheaper in CBM increase micromanagement? I guess there are a few, a couple of the globals might force you to assign more bodyguards,...

Wasn't expecting CBM spells to come up in this thread as a problem.