Modders, Race Creators and TDM-creators

[raynor]

I don't really expect MM to ever balance the weapons. I think they have many, many more pressing issues. For example, didn't I see that they are just now beta-testing a fix that will let the AI use troops or somesuch?

I think it is up to the modders out there to sit down and completely re-design the tech tree. I think everyone agrees that it has even more gaping holes in it than the AI. But while it is a lot of fun to design your own races, re-designing the tech tree is a pretty daunting task.

I have an idea for a program that will let you compare the ships of different races at particular points in time so that you can evaluate what changes to the research order and ship designs will have vs. another AI.

The biggest problem with completely re-designing the tech tree is going back in an play-balancing everything. If it were possible to make one change to a weapon and then "predict" its effect on several different races, then this task would be much, much easier.

Writing such a tool would be a lot of fun--but not more fun than sleeping.

BTW, whose idea to allow 100 ships instead of 30?!?

[God Emperor]

The problem that most modders have identified I believe is that the AI cannot effectively utilise a combination of weapons, and also will immediately use the level 1 Version of a weapon over a previous (say) level 5 type. This encourages the choice of a limited number of weapons with similar (long ranges) - ie PPB, NSP, APB, CSM. Other special weapons such as engine overloaders and shield depleters can be useful and interesting secondary weapons but thats about it.
I have found modding to be a process of determining the weapon, ship design etc that AI can best use under all circumstances (because it is incapable of paper-rock, scissors-paper, rock-scissors reactions).

In ship design, the best example of this is that all of my races include minesweeping components and their minesweepers are armed. A human would most likely have a dedicated fleet of minesweepers but the AI's poor use of its ship types leads to the design of ships that can do a bit of everything - ie so that when the AI encounters a given circumstance, all of its warships have some ability to contribute to a solution.

As a result, I do not intend to make radical changes in my races with regard to weapon use - the PPB's, NSP's, APB's and CSM's are the best all round weapons that a non organic/temporal/ psychic AI can use effectively (IMHO).

I would be interested though to hear if anyone can get the AI to effectively use other weapon types or combinations.

Regards,
GE

[Alpha Kodiak]

Originally posted by raynor:
I don't really expect MM to ever balance the weapons. I think they have many, many more pressing issues. For example, didn't I see that they are just now beta-testing a fix that will let the AI use troops or somesuch?

Actually, the AI has been able to use troops well for a while. There were some intermediate issues with troops that needed clean up between Beta patches. They are not release issues, as far as I am aware.

[God Emperor]

Taera,
Thanks for your thoughts on the weapons mod issue.
Further to my earlier post, the main problem I have found is finding a way of getting the AI to use different weapons types to their best effect.
Natty weapons combinations that a human would use to interesting effect are generally poorly used by the AI. Hence, the reason why modders have tended to settle on certain weapons types and combinations.
Regards,

GE

[Taera]

The way i design ships for my own racestyles (not too many though) is go to the game, pick some powerful race, look at it's designs. Then design a counter design to it. Then to modify the DesignCreation. Then to modify the research tech tree to optimize the speed at which the AI reaches the tech.
This way i was the first one to actually find out the power of ID against most ships. My first Taera Versions never were too popular and then the Aquilane (sp?) racestyle came out utilizing the tech to its full.

Same way was the poorly managed TechnoLogic. Their designs are in fact just great, just the overall AI is lacking.

Also given the ability of SEIVG to specify the exact type of the ship to create, combinations of various designs could be created in appropiate numbers.

Anyway, hope you see my point.

Andrey.

[Alpha Kodiak]

Originally posted by Taera:
Also given the ability of SEIVG to specify the exact type of the ship to create, combinations of various designs could be created in appropiate numbers.

Very good point. I tried to use this some with the Azorani, with fairly good results. Though the numbers of individual types you specify don't seem to come out as intended. I'm still trying to figure out when they will produce how many of which attack ship design. But that is ok, at least I am getting some kind of a mix.

[capnq]

I don't really expect MM to ever balance the weapons.

I don't expect anyone to balance the weapons in a way that a majority of players will agree is the "right" balance.

[Master Belisarius]

Andrey: when did the scripts for Pyrochette/Aquilaeian, to be original was not my main objective: I just wanted to create an AI that maybe could create some kind of challenge. When I have started them, my knowledge about SE4 was not big... and this is the only reason because I have used Temporal and Organics for them!

[jimbob]

I don't expect anyone to balance the weapons in a way that a majority of players will agree is the "right" balance.

Very true. Heck, I still think that the DUC damage level should go down a slight bit, but have the advantage of skipping shields altogether (because they have mass, rather than most of the other weapons, which are actually energy weapons. Even missiles are actually energy weapons, because it's the radiation from the explosion that does the damage) or atleast do quad damage. This would sure lengthen the life-span of the DUC in game play too. Oh, but I'd increase the supply use per shot.

Just my undervalued, inflation-bitten, softwood-tariffed .02 $Cdn.

[ May 28, 2002, 00:26: Message edited by: jimbob ]

[Taera]

First sorry but i've been misunderstood. I did not mean to criticize all the AI races out there all the way you reached the PPB and NSP combinations.
I just said that the thing is becoming abused and 80% of all the newest races i hear of are using those weapons, which makes no fun games.
Im just telling my opinion which is that the game would become a little better if each race had its own _unique_ weapons combinations.

There are different weapons that the AI can use quite effectively, most importantly the heavier weapons like torpedoes and gravitational guns.
The point is that the AI tends to build a lot of ships and the better AIs group them in large fleets of 10+.
In my latest game i went to the gravity weapons road and found out an interesting thing: while the weapon is extremly weak on its own, when massed it is one of the best weapons out there.

Religious races also could benefit from torpedoes much more than from just energy guns they use now (most of the races i've seen use APB or PPB or MB or whatever).

Wormhole beam could make a useful addition to any heavy gear gun - NSP, WMG, Mental Singularity and so on. Shoot, warp 'em away and untill you meet again your weapons will be ready to fire once again.

And so on. With a little of thinking of the matter, every single gun in the game could find its use - and effective use. I've noticed it a while ago back in SE3, my destroyers with MB and torpedoes were breaking havoc while those weapons were considered to be the less effective.