Finnish OOB 6.0

[dmnt]

Investigating, skip this Don

Has anyone any idea whether FDF is using XA-185 + TOW combination? I found lots of forum posts where people have seen Bv 206 + TOW or NA-140 + TOW combinations and even used them, but for XA-185 + TOW I only remember having heard about it in the FDF and coming up with some pictures from the internet:
http://www.militaryimages.net/photop...php/photo/8381

Wikipedia lists "some equipped with TOW turrets" but... no references.

Just prototypes? Are they disassembled already?

[dmnt]

Originally Posted by dmnt

Vehicles: NASUs definitely and maybe BMP-2 (and/or MT-LBs? BTR-50?), XA-180 / 185 will be taken out of service as well as older trucks.

Today there was a news article on Helsingin Sanomat about the vehicle upgrades to come: http://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/Armeijan+va...a1305571811386 (In Finnish)

in short:
-Upgrade SISU XA vehicles (180/185 series or all? Scrap 180/185 and upgrade 200s? - not mentioned here)
-SISU NA-120 tracked vehicles are to be replaced with Norwegian owned Swedish built ones (Bandvagn)
-Upgrade BMP-2, prototyping offers have already been asked
-In a couple of years a decision will be made on Leopard 2A4 tanks. Either an upgrade or a purchase of more modern and less used ones.

I'll check later if the ink on dead tree version has more information as they suggest at the end.

[dmnt]

I have the Helsingin Sanomat news article which provides some in-depth information:

Vehicles

The Sisu NA-140 will be replaced with Bv 206's from Norway if Norway will sell them enough. First test batch has been received already.

Sisu XA-180/185 will be upgraded. First prototypes will be field tested this year, some pictures have been in the internet suggesting improvement on the armoring similar to XA-200 series. The upgrades should start in 2013 and continue for "a decade as there are hundreds of them in use."
http://www.tekniikkatalous.fi/multim...ium_87038b.jpg

Leopards will either have an upgrade or then the budget will be used to purchase them used from somewhere. The target is to have them usable until 2030's.

BMP-2 (acquired 1988-1992) will be upgraded in 2-3 years.

Approx. 100 MT-LBs were bought from Sweden last year to replace BTR-50s for good. They have arrived lately and are being inspected.
http://www.tekniikkatalous.fi/metalli/article598749.ece

AT weaponry
M72 A5 (local designation 66 KES 75) will be out of service by the middle of this decade. The replacement will be bought next year and the purchase will be in the order of thousands.

Apilas will be replaced by MBT-LAW (local designation NLAW). The replacement in training will take place from next year on.

95 S 58-61 "Musti" has been out of training from this year on.

[dmnt]

Nasu NA-140
Inconsistent speed value
Units 35, 36, 37 have a move speed of 16
Units 43, 334 have a move speed of 18

Nasu NA-140 is slightly faster than Bv 206, which has speed 16-17 depending on country (some inconsistencies there). I believe 18 is the proper value.

Modify
Units 35, 36, 37: move speed to 18

[dmnt]

Here we go... re: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=48894

Sisu XA-* with OWS platforms lack FC values and are classified as non-turreted AAMGs suffering from being buttoned.

Turreted NSV-12.7s (PML - 127 - OWS) are in XA-203, XA-203+ and AMV Patria APC (XA-360). Statistics are probably quite similar to Swedish Patgb 203 A, albeit not the same weapon. Turret elevation is up to 48 degrees, so AFAIK AA-capable. re: http://www.armyrecognition.com/finla...photos_uk.html

Modify
Weapon 069
12.7mm NSV TMG
Weapon class: 19 (AA capable Auto Cannon)

Modify
Units 051, 052, 054
Weapon 1: 69
Fire control: 5
Range Finder: 8

Add
Patria APC
Weapon 1: 90 (40mm KrKK 05)
Fire control: 5
Range Finder: 8

XA-360 at FDF page, see bottom
"Asevarustus Kongsberg Protector RWS, jossa 12,7 mm raskaskonekivääri 2005 tai 40 mm kranaattikonekivääri 2005"

Weaponry Kongsberg Protector RWS, with 12.7 mm heavy machine gun 2005 or 40mm AGL 2005

[dmnt]

Originally Posted by dmnt

I have the Helsingin Sanomat news article which provides some in-depth information:

Vehicles

The Sisu NA-140 will be replaced with Bv 206's from Norway if Norway will sell them enough. First test batch has been received already.

Bv 206's (There was a test batch of 10 units) have been accepted and they will enter service at the change of the year. The NA-140's are to be sold by 2017.

There was a longer article in the printed version, which stated that the units are shipped in December 2012 and they're going to start using them from 2013 onwards.

BV 206 at FDF page

Helsingin Sanomat news article

Finnish Army to replace tracked vehicles with Norwegian ones
21.11.2012 16:17 15
STT

The Finnish Defence Forces is to replace all domestic build Sisu tracked vehicles with ones bought from Norway.

The Army has signed a contract for 123 used Hägglunds tracked vehicles acquisition of Norway. It also includes a provision for acquiring additional 150 units. The need of the Army is about 400 units in total.

Price is negotiated at EUR 27 000 each. Vehicles have a mileage in average of 4 000 km (2500 miles) and they are according to FDF of excellent condition.

The Finnish Defence Forces says that the BV 206s diesel engines will be significantly cheaper to use than gasoline driven Sisus.

The Sisu vehicles that are used in troop transportation were made ​​in the 1980s. All 250 Sisu units will be phased out gradually by 2017. They will then be sold at auction.

Modify:
Units: 035, 036, 037, 043: end date to 12/2017

One thing I am uncertain about is the TOW versions (035,036,037) of Nasus. I know for a fact that the mechanical compability to use TOW missiles wherever you have NSV's exist (the NSV mount used is specifically made compatible), but I have no idea if NA-140 was ever used / planned to be used in this combination. So in theory you could plug the TOW to XA-series APCs as well. The same goes for MD-500 which seems to be equipped with Spike anti-tank missiles.

MLRS issues in Finnish OOB.
I'm getting mixed messages with my google searches on whether Finland has cluster munition ammunition or not.

"The cluster munition rockets (M26) which created a fuss were not in the order" http://www.mtv3.fi/uutiset/kotimaa.s...2008/02/607129
"M30 is in the inspection."

The most reliable note here is the public parts of the thesis (2009), http://publications.theseus.fi/bitst...pdf?sequence=2
about MLRS storage logistics.
AT-2 (mines), M28 (fire practise use) have been bought and are in storage
M30 (GMLRS) investigated
ATACMS investigated

In 2005-2010 the goal was to train conscripts with AT-2 payloads, in 2011-2016 to get CM/ATACMS payloads and train conscripts with them. There's little if any information on the status of the M30 / ATACMS payloads.

In the absence of better information (we know that before 2011 there was no M30 in Finland) and ATACMS is still in the order phase (http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36...land_12-25.pdf)

Modify:
Unit 557 MLRS Platoon, From 1/2011

[dmnt]

Piece by piece additions, sorry about them:

Unit 164 130mm Field Gun, Start date is wrong (currently 1/92). Soldiers' guide from 1980 (approved May 2nd 1979) ISBN 951-25-0135-x lists 130 K 54 (= M46) as the main heavy artillery piece. It has been used "since 60's", but I've failed to find better reference. Probably acquired at the same time as 122 H 63 (Unit 160) and could start at 1/67.

Suggestion:
Modify, start date to 1/67

[DRG]

Originally Posted by dmnt

Suggestion:
Modify, start date to 1/67

It's now 1/62 to match the start date of the same off map guns. (U 183)

Don

[DRG]

......when they are actually in use, let me know.

Don

[DRG]

I'll take a look at it

Don