Dominions 2 : Rankings and Tourneys ?

[BF_Napoleon]

Hey folks !

First, thanx for the many replies and feedback ! I will try to answer some questions and than we can discuss further steps !

@Cheezeninja :

One part of me says it would be a good idea, but another part of me says it would just be an invitation for people to play to win instead of play to have fun.

True, but our experience (we had more than 1200 ladder games reported the Last year)is that players are free to decide if they want to play for points and not. The point system is very fair to all, even to them that lose. You dont get minus points, so you JUST can win !

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@Kristoffer O : Congrats to the amazing game which has a playing deepth i never seen !

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@Gandalf Parker :

I think its a good idea. I probably wont participate. (now I have to figure out if its because Im mostly a solo player, or because I know I will always be in a laughable position)

Try multiplay dude ! You wil love it and you will become addicted. Dont worry about losing, even ladder games can be fun because you dont LOSE points, you only can win them :-)

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@Sergex :

I'm just afraid that all of the tourneys will be decided on stale turns and who keeps interest the longest. If you are giving prizes and such, games can Last forever with the normal settings. You'd have to have really small maps if you want tourneys to finish within a month with the usual 1 or 2 turns per day set up.

Some good points Sergex. How long Last games on small maps ? Thats my question, because i hadnt time enought to play test the game in the Last weeks, i just played it for some days because of my lack of time. A feedback about this would be very helpfull for us.

Perhaps you could set up a tourney that has a set time limit and require blitzing during set hours so the games don't drag on indefinitely. Say, 2 week game, required to be Online 8PM-10PM Thu, Fri, Sat, and to quickhost the rest of the time on 24 hour turns. That way I could see getting around 70-100 turns in 2 weeks and then just decide the game basded on # of provinces.

About Tournaments. Our site includes a feature that every member can SET UP their own tourneys ! The engine does everyone for the player ! Sending emails, doing the game plans...everything ! Players just play ;-)

Anyway, my point is that with default settings the game isn't set up for a timely tournament structure. It could be lots of fun, but you'd need some house rules and strict time limits and victory conditions.

That wont be a problem, we can discuss that and we will add such needed features easily

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@Duncanish :

I think it's a nice idea. I'd probably enter, get beaten, then never use it again though. ^^; What kinds of medals/prizes were you thinking of, or have you not planned that far ahead yet?

Dont worry to go on playing ! You wont lose any points as i said before, you only can win ! That makes sure people wont get frustrated by losing points when they are newbies or just played against experienced players.


Prizes could be : Games, EXTRA POINTS; Medals for your Profile...
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@ Karacan :

Hmm, I am afraid that while a multiplayer game of AoW can be done easily in four sessions (including manual battle, that is), Dominions II takes much much longer to complete. This has various side-effects unwanted in rankings, such as the ranking never actually reflects the *real* position, because the player might get his behind handed over in three games at the moment, which will still take a couple of months to finish.

Thats the main point, i need more feedback from you guys about that please. Which are the general settings which could influence the game report ? And so on...please help

Furthermore, a lot of people don't stay in Dom II to the very end, but turn over to AI or drop out forever, once they find themselves in a loosing position. Part of that is, again, the usual duration of a game. Even if you're obviously loosing, it could still take lots of turns to the final defeat.

Remember what i said before. You wont lose points when losing ! You will win some because you collected some experience and brought a game to the end, even when you were in Last position. BUT quitters get a MINUS points penalty , because we all now that quitting a game is very unfair.

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@Sergex :

Ya, when ranking comes into play people will quit right away if they don't think they have a chance to win, which will make lots of games end up with 2 or 3 people against a bunch of AIs. A newbie who finds himself in a game with lots of experts may just quit right off but not go AI and really slow the quickhosting down.

I just see lots of problems that need to be addressed.

Same as i said before ! Our point system is fair to all, even to the weak and new players so that they wont leave. With your help we can set up a ranking ! But we need a lot of feedback !
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@ Zen :

A.) A Website Designer to Design the website for posting of the new html feature of the ScoreGraphs and registration for Tourny and Proxy tracking.

Check out : THE BATTLEFIELD.com thats what you are looking for ! If you are interested in such a feature ( ranking and tourneys for strategy games contact me, we are looking for good staff members and free helpers.

B.) Assistance in finding an equitable system of rating based off of game types. Please note that due to the factors of Dom2, that only certain types of games *can* be Tourney Games (VP or Victory Condition games, no Ironman) and the system is based on multiple players recieving a rating based on a number of factors, not just winning.

The-Battlefield.com all has that, missing features that are needed ca be coded and added.

So as you can see. If you have either of those talents, we have the other nessecary components for a Ladder System. Please Email me if you have any of those talents and an inordinate amount of time on your hands.

An email is on the way, lets get in touch via ICQ asap.

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Thanx for your time so far folks ! I hope that this discussion can go on ! Dont hesitate to post your questions, ideas, suggestions ! I will answer any and try to do our best to sep up a ranking !

Best regards,

Napoleon

[ April 26, 2004, 10:23: Message edited by: BF_Napoleon ]

[Yossar]

Are we talking about 1v1 games here or games with many people? In games with more people wouldn't it just turn into everyone going after the highest-rated guy first? If there were team games and allied victory it could work though.

[BF_Napoleon]

@Yossar :

1on1, FFA and Team games...everything :-)

[Tris]

Hmmm...

Zen - I like designing rules systems, so if you want I can put some thought into a tournament ranking system. To me it sounds like the guys at battlefields have their stuff together about things like this, so I'd be tempted to go with them, but the offer is there.


Others - "Ganging up on leader" isn't a problem. The whole point of the game is that you are trying to become THE god. If the best way to do that is to take down the most powerful guy, you should do it.

The "All beat the leader" is a big problem in games where in the game there is only one winner, but the situation the game is portraying could allow for more than one.

Eg - Playing a game of Medieval European politics and battle with friends. Two people allied, and pretty much took over the entire continent with a well timed backstab. In 'reality' they are both winners, they now each control half of Europe, and are strongly allied witht the other half - competely capably of stopping the other families (now minor houses, rather than rulers of nations) from ever getting a foot back on the throne.

In the game one was forced to attack the other, as the other had a few points more gold, and so would win the game.

This doesn't happen in Dominions. Any way to be Last one standing fits perfectly with what the game is about.

[BF_Napoleon]

Hey Tris !

Yes you are right, we at The Battlefield have a WORKING ladder / tourney engine. It took a long time to code a working one.

But we need the help of the players to create a Dominions 2 ranking.

So how about you join our team and we can start creating a D2 ranking ?

I mean, we have the infastructure, its totally free to all, its working pretty fine. Coding a totally new one would Last to long, i am speaking out of our experience about that.

So how about that ?

[sergex]

Another problem I can think of is collusion between players. When you get a Free for All and a few of the players collude to not fight each other until they eliminate the other people, it's unfair to those others. Even without a planned collusion I would still be less likely to attack someone I'm friendly with than someone who is a stranger.

Unfortunately there is no "teams" setting for Dom2. It would be nice to set up a team game where you can set up allied nations at the beginning and set it to an allied victory. You'd be able to travel through your allies' territory as if it were your own and be able to attack provinces together. I think that would be a huge test of strategy and teamwork for a tournament structure.

However, barring that, you will probably see a lot of "pre-teaming" in the FFA games. Perhaps 1on1 would be the best way to go for prize tournaments. If you have a 5 man FFA and 3 of the people are good friends then the other 2 don't even have a slight chance to prevail.

And on the subject of having timeley games, is there a way to set it so the game Lasts X amount of turns and at the end each person's provinces are totaled and that determines the victor? Say, the game will Last 70 turns and then the players get ranked based on how many lands they've won.

[ April 26, 2004, 19:09: Message edited by: sergex ]

[alexti]

I'd think that ranking of the standard games would not work well (due to possible pact and alliances). However 1x1 or team games (2x2, 3x3 etc) should work well. Essentially, the important requirement is to have only 2 parties at the start and one winning party in the end. As a ranking system, Elo rating system (like in chess) should work fine. In principle, there're only 2 main requirements for the ranking system to work. The total of Ratings of all participating players should not change after the game, and the increase of the rating for the win should be greater if one defeats stronger player. To extend the system for the teams, the total winnings should probably be divided equally bewteen the players in the winning team (the amount of winning would depend on relative total Ratings of opposing teams).

[BF_Napoleon]

Well, a FFA can be a problem, but shouldnt be. Even players that know each other can be fair players.

From my side of experience, FFA games are fair mostly. Sure there are always unfair players but what can we do ?

ONE GOOD thing we have at the site is that you can COMMENT games and your opponents ! You can say for example : Dont play him ! Unfair ! Or write some sentences about how the game went. So other players can see what happened in the game. The game becomes transparent for the community, so unfair players can be found very quick, unfair team games will become public.

[Norfleet]

Well, that all depends on how you define "fair". Two players that know each other likely have an understanding of exactly how the other will behave, and will be less likely to provoke the other into premature and potentially undesirable violence. That alone can amount to implicit collusion. On the other hand, it's far from sound strategy to attack everyone you see like a slavering Zebranky: You're simply much more likely to try peace with somebody you already know, than somebody you have no experience with and probably distrust as a result.

So what defines "fairness"?

[BF_Napoleon]

Hey Norfleet !

Ok, lets try do define FAIRNESS :

First thing is that we have detailed RULES for FFA Games that ALL players must accept before starting a game.

Second as i mentioned before is, that the COMMENT function that the player know, helps behaving like rules want you to behave.

It makes no sence to ally with your friend when hundreds of other players can read about how you played.

A 100% fair ranking is impossible. Especially in FFA games. But people who start a FFA know that. 1on1 2on2 wont be a problem. But what can we do ?

I think its worth a try and we can do some Steps like BANNING players or giving them some minus points or something if the play unfair.

Such steps can be discussed in the community as well, as i ever say, FEEDBACK welcome :-)