The one change Dom2 really needs.....

[Graeme Dice]

Zen said:
Do you mean 2W2S?

No, I mean 4W. The reason for this is if you change it to 2W2S, then it limits it to a few nations, that can still clam as easily as they did before. And give them what would seem to be an advantage (not that there is).

[/quote]

I wasn't aware that you could separate the required paths from the gem costs. I've no problem with requiring 4W to forge actually, since that seems like a good way to limit the throughput on clams.

See above for the overpriced bit. Perhaps it could be changed to 3N1F or something similiar. There is a reason that I haven't released the Mod yet, because I'm still seeing what nations are able and how fast the exponential growth curve on the new costs would be.

Well, the curve for fetishes was already a lot slower than that for clams. Blood stones were already a rarity for most nations, and anyone using them likely has a hammer, so the increase in cost there doesn't matter too much.

I just ran the numbers on fetishes through some calcs, and with F1N1, no hammer, and income of 5 fire gems per turn, at turn 100 you can have 139 built. You'll need to also factor in the cost of whatever is holding them. With a hammer it's 255 fetishes. At F2N2, the same numbers would be 33 and 69 respectively. That's with a huge number of fire gems alchemized into nature gems though, which might not necessarily be the case.

[Pickles]

Zen said:

"Clam of Pearls - 4W, 10 Water, 10 Astral"

I appreciate the reasoning but having one item that does not follow the item cost formula seems like a bad idea.

"Winged Shoes - 2A, 10 Air"

This makes Caelum, Air queens & Archdevils stronger & I am not sure they need it. OTOH flying is the real problem with SCs I think as the operational manoevreability is what seperates them from troops.

Pickles

[Arryn]

Pickles said:
having one item that does not follow the item cost formula seems like a bad idea.

FWIW, I agree with you.

Pickles said:
"Winged Shoes - 2A, 10 Air"

This makes Caelum, Air queens & Archdevils stronger & I am not sure they need it. OTOH flying is the real problem with SCs I think as the operational manoevreability is what seperates them from troops.

I agree that flying is what makes the SCs so dangerous, but the shoes are presently only 1A and 5 air. Zen doubled it. But it's not enough. I'd make them at least 3A and 20 air gems.

IMO, what makes Caelum so strong isn't that their units fly (so what, they all rout at the drop of a hat, unless you build just archers and keep them away from the enemy), but that they have a large air income to spend on equipping non-air SCs or summoning those air queens that you mention. And that income is something that cannot easily be "balanced" without destroying Caelum as a playable nation.

[PrinzMegaherz]

Life draining weapons should only drain strength not included damage from their opponents. That way, strong commanders/creatures would not heal such insane amounts of hp each strike.

[Chazar]

I would also dislike it if forging requirements diverge from forging costs, but its probably better for balancing though...

Arryn said:
IMO, what makes Caelum so strong isn't that their units fly (...), but that they have a large air income to spend on equipping non-air SCs or summoning those air queens that you mention.

I've played Caelum quite a bit, and even with GaleGate up early on, you will never ever have enough air gems to supply all your mages with the gems the burn in every battle, not counting the obligatory StaffofStorms in every skirmish-group and those BagofWinds,etc. I found it easier to summon IceDevils with the Blood-sages I get than summoning AirQueens. The mobility, however, is a large boon, as your armies can always be kept busy and thus worth their cost & upkeep. It was the key to my success in a game against three allied opponents on the small Urgaia map, since I could use the same forces again and again to push them back in a round robin fashion as they were poorly coordinated (was sort of a introductory game for my friends ).
So I also guess that flying/teleporting is essential for SCs, because that is the reason why they can easily outrun any substantial no-SC invading forces; disabling the strategy to hit a big empire at different corners...

[Graeme Dice]

Arryn said:
I agree that flying is what makes the SCs so dangerous, but the shoes are presently only 1A and 5 air. Zen doubled it. But it's not enough. I'd make them at least 3A and 20 air gems.

A pair of flying boots has far less impact than a single staff of storms, and this change would effectively limit flying to only the three air 3 nations.

[Graeme Dice]

Frosted Flake said:
I know what i think it is. The game has a rich assortment of weapons and shields and basically they are all useless. National troops and even Scs are helpless against a wraith sword/hell sword weilding SC.

You've never seen 40 barbarians take down a banelord with herioc toughness(100 hitpoints), luck pendant, jade armour and a wraith sword? It happens often enough that I avoid barbarian provinces altogether.

[Frosted Flake]

Once in a blue moon a poorly protected SC can lose to a host of indies but its rare. Bane lords are only a level 5 summons and cost only 10 gems and are very very effective.They come with a cool blade that noone would consider letting them swing. If lifedrain was nerfed, and screw thematic I'm talking game fun, people would still summon every SC they could they'd just maybe want some troops along and we'd see them decked with different toys. I love Jotun neifelheim and a properly equipped jarl can take out a stack of heavy cav solo..its kinda sick

frosty

[Zen]

Frosted Flake said:
Once in a blue moon a poorly protected SC can lose to a host of indies but its rare. Bane lords are only a level 5 summons and cost only 10 gems and are very very effective.They come with a cool blade that noone would consider letting them swing. If lifedrain was nerfed, and screw thematic I'm talking game fun, people would still summon every SC they could they'd just maybe want some troops along and we'd see them decked with different toys. I love Jotun neifelheim and a properly equipped jarl can take out a stack of heavy cav solo..its kinda sick

frosty

So what do you do with Vampires? Just a question I'd ask. Change it to Steal Strength? Or just let them tear people up and not have them suck blood (I'm not saying this couldn't be construed as thematic since I doubt every vampire that ever attacks is allowed to suck blood).

Some people do leave the Bane Lord with his normal weapon, I do very frequently, because he is decked out and his weapon does decay. And at the rate Bane Lords can die and their incorporated cost, it doesn't seem economical for me to spend another 10 gems for a Wraith Sword, when I can just get another Bane Lord for another 10 gems (baring Forge bonuses, but they are hardly common to every time I use death).

[Frosted Flake]

the vamyre life drain at least doesnt get an attack,defense bonus and reach like wraith swords. vampyres are also a level 7 summons. I almost never use them offensively (unless empowered) but rather to summon allies. A current game I have about 1000 vampyres and 30+ lords summoning more ever turn. I would have no complaints if that growth was nerfed. Against the living 1 bane lord with a wraith sword can defeat what 3 w/o could not at a gem savings.