The problem of low hit points on humans

[Shovah32]

E9N4 Paladins can make decent thugs, they also have high leadership, good movement and can bless your knights of the chalice.

[B0rsuk]

Twan said:
as hp here represent their extra capacity to avoid any kind of dammage -defense doesn't work as "heroes points" as it's useless against missiles/spells,

Wrong. Hp is here precisely to represent creatures who are more sturdy and can resist more damage dealt to them. I know there are some games out there that use this oversimplification (especially D&D) but here it's not the case. Titans aren't harder to hit with bows and crossbows, they're just more resistant. And you certainly can improve your toughness to a certain degree with exercises. Also, some people are just tougher than others.

Dominions is actually pretty realistic game. In real life, you can't count on dodging arrows on bullets. There's no contradiction here - even heroes have to obey basic rules of physics. Strenght of heroes often comes from skills. That's what I like about Dominions.

They can't be all heroes. Simple. You can never protect your thugs from everything. And it's clearly intentional judging by the way Illwinter changed buff spells in Dominions3. Many buff spells now add a disadvantage such as poison vulnerability.
Contrary to what some people (coming from shallow fantasy RPGs, no doubt) say, some armor and a shield is not wasted on a commander. If it was so simple, everyone would use commanders like Tien Chi's eunuch (essentially 9hp 0 prot, no equipment or something very similar). And people would kill themselves over a chance of playing Pangaea, because even small amount of harpies would be able to instantly kill all enemy commanders.
Really, there are still dangers, even if you command an army from rear row. Howl, Imps, harpies, arrows...

[Twan]

Yes, I've just said that Hp used the D&D way *in their case* are the best way to have med fan warrior type heroes (like you can find in legends or books) in the limits of the dominion system. The other approach for hp, using a low number for humans even exceptionnal + abilities like defense to avoid to be hit also came from RPGs (call of cthulhu, runequest etc...), but is far worse to simulate med fan warrior type heroes and make them useful in a strategy game, as dominions shows it. The main caracteristic of the cthulhu/runequest concept of hp is to be far more random, as it is "you dodge or die fast" instead of "the better you are the slower you die". Too much random to give a reason to risk gear on heroes used as warriors when there are summons with far more hp (or other stats have to be so better that this system would favor heroes far more than some use of the D&Dian hp concept).

[alexti]

Maybe it'd make sense if human heroes were giving extra experience to the troops they lead (some small bonus, let's say +3 per month). It is thematic and seems to fit into Dominion concept. Another option is to make some such heroes have +1 morale on the battlefield effect. Those look like effects real human heroes might have had.

[HoneyBadger]

I agree with everything that's been said against humans having extra hp. The reasons are solid. That said, I see no reason why a magic item couldn't be included in the game that would bump up hp. Maybe +15. Not a huge boost gameplay-wise, but it would help out human SC heroes while ofcourse draining that nation of valuable gems (I'm thinking 1 type that would cost 5 earth and 5 nature at const 6 and 1 type, possibly +25, that would cost 25 blood at const 4). Certainly, it should atleast further lead astray those who play with SC humans. And it could be decent, in combination with regeneration-to stick on a very weak human pretender, incase that pretender is going out-dominion, which he or she probably shouldn't be.

[Teraswaerto]

I've always liked how in Dominions HP is clearly tied to size. A human will die much easier than giant, and a giant will die much easier than an ancient Kraken. It makes such perfect sense, and there are very few exceptions to it.

[mivayan]

Twan said:
Yes, I've just said that Hp used the D&D way *in their case* are the best way to have med fan warrior type heroes (like you can find in legends or books) in the limits of the dominion system.

If you want to mod in Medieval Fantasy Heroes, higher hp works. But I'm glad they are not in the base game, humans surviving arrows and spells in a war zone doesn't fit in dominions.

[PvK]

Twan said:
Yes, I've just said that Hp used the D&D way *in their case* are the best way to have med fan warrior type heroes (like you can find in legends or books) in the limits of the dominion system.

I entirely disagree. In legends and books you do NOT see heroes that get hit by axes and swords and fireballs, and just chuckle and say, "Sorry, I'm a Hero(tm), and you will need to impale me another 50 times before it will have any effect!"

That's D&D, and the unwashed ocean of unimaginative-designed computer games that follow its mold.

In heroic legend and fiction, as well as in movies and in real life, extremely successful heroes survive combat by avoiding getting hit with a battleaxe (etc), through skill, luck, cunning, knowing when to run away, etc.

The other thing that makes heroic tales and heroes is 20/20 hindsight, not that some people are branded heroes and given the ability to ignore getting impaled, etc. That is, for every war hero, there are many others who in theory may have been just as tough, but who died or otherwise didn't get an opportunity to do anything heroic.

Twan said:
...
Too much random to give a reason to risk gear on heroes used as warriors when there are summons with far more hp
...

This I do agree with. Dominions currently offers many summons which are not only better than most regular humanoids, but are also more cost-effective once one has the means to summon them. So in a competetive multi-player game, after that point, it becomes the smart strategy to give the best magic items to those guys. Also, by that point in the game, battlefield magic is also really strong and cost-effective, also making humanoid thugs quite vulnerable. I see those as just logical effects of the magical arms race and the cheap costs given to high-powered magic, and not a reason to make a group of heroic humans with lots of hit points.

Using human thugs is one of my own favorite parts of Dominions, and I do it both in single-player and multi-player, though in multi-player late-game it's often not very cost-effective compared to the alternatives. It's a compelling challenge for me to try to keep my mortals alive and effective in the face of increasing magical threats. My approach to improve things is to make mods which help by offering a different magic cost balance, so human thugs can be closer to cost-effective even into the late game.

PvK

[Twan]

In legends and books you do NOT see heroes that get hit by axes and swords and fireballs, and just chuckle and say, "Sorry, I'm a Hero(tm), and you will need to impale me another 50 times before it will have any effect!"

It's why the D&Dian definition of hit points is "capacity to survive" *including all non conventional ways to avoid being hit*. The old D&D system even (perhaps not the last editions, I've stopped at AD&D 1 and this kind of concepts have been denatured by extra rules to sell paper since then) only included hp and armor (a little influenced by dexterity), not things like parry, acrobatic moves, zigzag runs to avoid missiles, having a bible which stop a bullet (oops Conan not Robert Mitchum), use of the corpse of a dead soldier as a shield, or any other thing Conan or Fafhrd will do 42 times per book. It's also why I consider logical if extra hp are given to heroes to represent that to give them also recuperation or regeneration to reduce the number of afflictions, as the extra h(it/eroic) points they lose are not supposed to represent real wounds in the heroes case (personnally I don't believe in culturism giving more than 1 or 2 "real" hit points).

[Potatoman]

It's amusing that the primary arguments used to defend the current model of national heroes being only slightly stronger than generic HI are "realism" and "common sense".
This is a game in which knife-wielding assassins charge at their targets over an open field, Minotaurs won't swing their axes at any enemy smaller than themselves, and magic is everywhere. Realism and common sense take a back seat to playability and theme in dominions.

In both real legends and "shallow fantasy RPGs" (quoted to preserve the snootiness), heroes are heroic because of their extraordinary skill, strength, power, etc. But this didn't really translate that well into dominions, where most of the heroes didn't get enhancements that are statistically significant enough to make them survivable in combat. I'd really like to see an official implementation of the Worthy Heroes mod or something similar.