Are Clams worth empowering for?

[Nikolai]

> A Skratti has a chance for a Nature random. Then all you need is a water bracelet to start clamming.

Water Bracelet is level 6. Better to make Jarl forge Water 3 robe - costs more, but you can start forging.

[Micah]

There's also the fact that pearls are so much more useful than water gems (except for a modest supply for the cheap water items...quickness items, FR items, and frost brands...only 5-10 gems for all or almost all of them). The only big water expenditure I'd really consider are the Queens. So if you've got a significant water income Clamming makes a lot of sense.

[Sandman]

It's probably more efficient just to alchemise.

[Xietor]

I would not mind seeing clams removed from the game. Micromanaging is bad.

[Meglobob]

Xietor said:
I would not mind seeing clams removed from the game. Micromanaging is bad.

Lets not remove anything from the game.

Dominions is about variety.

No one is forcing anybody to clam, its entirely optional.

I believe clams etc were already nerfed from Dom2 to Dom3, by increasing the gem cost. I think clams, fetishes and blood stones are okay as they are.

This is from someone who as never seriously clammed in any game I have played.

[Xietor]

Maybe so. But I get tired of seeing "clammers" post on the big game thread for the game to end at turn 70 etc because they cannot handle the micromanagement that goes along with clamming late game in a big game.

[Micah]

They're really NOT optional in big games, is the thing. I had over 100 gems/turn coming in from items in a game as shinuyama by turn 75. Given how important astral magic is in the late-game I can't see how a non-clamming nation would be able to keep up, since all they'd have is a pile of water gems. IIRC I was getting around 40-50 gems of each type that far into the game (with maybe 100 provinces or so) so the clams represented a large amount of extra gems every turn.

Edit: I don't see how clamming is particularly mm-intensive though...every 5-10 turns if your water income is growing you build a few items or summon up a clammer. Other than that just group them up push F and then click misc item/clam, then right click a researcher somewhere and plop a clam on him. Hit "Pool gems" each turn. Done...maybe a minute of work/turn. I'd save a massively larger amount of time on my turns if orders weren't reset on commanders by removing items that don't impact the order, or if there was a way to retarget a ritual without having to go back through the different menus.

[Xietor]

hah. you made my point for me.

Saying micromanagement is not optional if you want to keep up with the Joneses. To win you must do it. But if it is a pain in the arse to do, and people whine they do not want games to go past a certain turn because it is micromanagement hell, then why not remove the items from the game and let players PLAY the game and have fun.

Clam production is a race to the bottom. You win, but it is not FUN to play the game. And the purpose of the game is? To have fun.

The Plaintiff rests his case, Your Honor.

[jutetrea]

Micromanagement isn't the issue, clamming doesn't require that much.

Have 1-3 mages set up for clams, re-forge, find an empty castle dweller, done. Once you want to harvest, note any units that have/need gems, hit pool gems, go back to those units and restock them if they were over a lab.

I usually ctrl-group the clammers, ctrl-F and done for the annoying lack of re-forge.

Mind you, the micro wasn't bad with 60-70 clams, I'm not sure how bad it would be if you had like 10-20 clammers going a turn, etc.

I treat it as an investment, but just as a side strategy. I let them accumulate till I need some rings or a heavy spell.

It would be cool to have them cost progressively more.

[Micah]

Xietor: Go back and read my edit (which I put up after your post, so I'm not trying to flame you for not reading or anything lame like that, I'm just pointing it out)

Clams themselves aren't the problem, it's the income they generate. I've found that once I hit about 100 provinces there's too much management (micro and macro) and the game starts to be a grind. There's just too much to worry about, too many boosters to shuffle, too many contingencies to plan. Since gold isn't terribly important by that stage of the game the gem items become essentially extra provinces, since they generate income just like them, with the corresponding increase in the amount of summons and whatnot that you have running around that you have to manage. It's just like playing on a bigger map though, and some people are into that.

I just don't personally enjoy the ever-increasing amount of gems that nations gain access to, regardless of territory, as the game wears on. I think a bounded economy is a good thing, generally speaking, and that the game would be better if it was always played with province-based income, not item-based income. So I don't like them, but not because they require excessive intrinsic management. I was playing a much smaller game and had a sizable amount of income from clams (probably a third of my total income) and they didn't really register as any sort of mm-concern. It's just when you add them in on top of administering 100 provinces that it's a problem for me. Maybe that just means I should play smaller maps.

That being said, I play to win and clam-horde like a little *****, cuz it's obviously the way to go.

Edit again: And that's the other reason I don't like them. Mandatory strategies just aren't much fun. If everyone is following the same dominant strategy (especially a passive one like clamming) then everyone's pretty much on an even playing field, so it could just as easily be removed. Obviously some nations benefit from them more by being able to access them easier/earlier, but when it's a worthwhile investment to empower/summon critters just to star clamming it's probably a sign that it's too much of a dominant strat. The main problem that arises is balancing the hit that natural clamming nations would take if they were removed, since it would weaken them significantly. So the issue gets even more complex if we talk about removing them...