Raising The Bar...

[Emperor Zodd]

There are times when I load zero or just 1m population. Usually when I colonize a distant tiny planet that has ruins.I would not want to be stuck with a auto full load system. Besides whats so hard about hitting the colonize button to get a full cargo load of people? Maybe thats too advanced for some people.

[ColdSteel]

On the manual issue, I've suggested to MM that they turn their HTML manual into a right-click, context sensitive help file that can be accessed directly from the game.

The hard part is done, all they'd need to do is link the indexes to the objects in the game code.

[Poddu]

Well, I seem to be in a singular minority about the Colony Ships. So be it ... it's a small issue, but here are some replies anyway.


WhiteHojo:

Yes, I understand, but why does the Colony Ship have to be full? You can colonize a planet with just a few million people, and have it be quite productive. This is a function of there being very little production penalty on a near-empty planet. You can send a Colony Ship to a new planet, build a Space yard in 5 turns, and build a Colony Ship 2 turns later. Even with only a few million (or even 1 Mil) people left on that planet, I can still crank out Colony Ships every 3 turns [only 1 extra turn], and send then off with a couple of million colonists. If there were a major production penalty involved it wouldn't be viable, but as it is, it works.

Richard:

About the manual issue, there is a similar comment in the user guide where Aaron says he would have needed over 350 pages to tell us all. It seems to me that there is a World Of Knowledge between what we have and these dense tomes that you propose. For example, when you are first playing the game, you might wonder what the differences are in the advanced traits. "Hmm", you say, "I wonder what is the difference between a Psychic race and a Deeply Religious race." When you look up "Empire Setup - Advanced Traits Window", you get a picture of that window and find out that this is where you select advanced racial traits. Yes, I figured that much out. But where do you get a brief description of what kinds of abilities or technologies are involved? I don't need a 20 page detailed description, but how about a 2 or 3 paragraph overview? As it is, one learns if a trait is interesting or useful to your type of playing style by investing an hour or so playing a game with it.

dmm:

Yes, this can happen, but usually by the time that it does, one has multiple spaceyards on multiple types of worlds, and one can systemize colonization. If the default were a filled colony ship, then once in a while one would have to offload and reload colonists. But the vast majority of the time, you'd be good to go. I'd rather micromanage the occasional exception, than every colony ship .. but, I can see that it cuts both ways.

Zodd:

Maybe you're right. Maybe, as you so kindly point out, some of us are just "slow learners" and need things "spelled out in manuals." Things like ... "which is better,computers or a real crew?" Things like ... "When you select to give the computer players a bonus, what exactly to they recieve?" We all have some questions, Zodd, and maybe a better manual would help some of us. Unlike yourself, I have not "discovered I knew everything already from playing the demo."

[Taqwus]

No manual is going to tell you how a race design plays, methinks. It's going to be heavily affected by the quadrant setup and your neighbors, and by your personal playing style (going for the quick conquest, building up first, etc). The same goes for many other questions, like Master Computers versus crew (in a Finite Resources game in an Ancient quadrant, for instance, you might want to be very, very miserly -- those MCs are expensive. But in a more normal setting, but surrounded by the Psychic Enemies Network, you'll probably want them. And so forth).

However, certain things *could* be extrapolated from the data files, and...

Perhaps a race trait's description should also include the names of the tech areas that require it? This could be automatically generated by the engine -- no need for hardcoding.

A certain amount of documentation could probably be auto-generated from data files, like a tech tree, complete with costs based on the game settings. This can also, of course, be studied by a user reading the files.

What can't be, are the details "under the hood", like --

- how do Ministers make their decisions

- what specific abilities mean (Some aren't that clear. For instance, looking at face value, it's unclear to me why the Economic Disruption op is more costly than the Resource Theft; presumably the Resource Destruction ability applies some multiplicative factor, or has some other hidden advantage, because otherwise it looks like it destroys no more than the Theft op steals).

- what occurs in a turn, and in what order

- how do the strategies work; e.g. what does "optimal range" optimize, when multiple weapon types are present?

and so forth.



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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

[Nyx]

I have to ask, how many people who have trouble learning SE4 have little or no experience with turn-based strategy games?

I know that I've been playing them since Empire back in the days of mainframes and that these days, if you play one, you know 80% of the controls for all of them. Most of the basic strategies work the same across the board as well. I needed less than 5 minutes to learn SE4, and whenever I need to access a feature for the first time, I have no trouble finding it exactly (or right near) where I expect it to be, based purely on assumptions from my experience with Emperor of the Fading Suns, Civ, Alpha Centauri, Galactic Civlizations, Star Control I, Moo, etc., etc., etc.

Of course my mindset also predisposes me to like many features. Take the colony ship thing. When I first discovered it, my reaction was, "Wow, cool! I get to choose how many people to put on my colony ship, or I can load it up full and send it on its way with just a single click! That's so handy."

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Compete in the Space Empires IV World Championship at www.twingalaxies.com.

[Tampa_Gamer]

Very well put. I made a suggestion to SG and MM back in early December to let registered Users have "read-only" access to the SE4 beta forum so that we could learn from all the trial and tribulations of the past 6 months.

[Elmo]

Guys

Whenever I have sent email to MM I always received a timely reply from Aaron. When I had a problem with my SE IV order I received prompt attention from Shrapnel. So my experience with both have been excellent so far.

Elmo

[Tomgs]

I agree that what is not in the manual would probably make a much larger book than what is in the manual (printed and CD). But for myself I enjoyed the game more when I was learning these things than I do now really. I still enjoy the game and I am still learning things (I am playing a temporal race for the first time in my current game). There are so many different combinations that it would be very difficult to put it all in a manual. But I do think that if the game goes on store shelves to a wider audience that a much better manual will be needed. On average the audience that is playing it now is much better prepared for this type of game than the person that can just pick it up off the shelf.

Myself I played SEIII for a month or so before the Demo for SEIV came out so it wasn't totally new to me. A lot of the technologies were familiar some are a bit more or less powerful in this Version but still I knew generally what they do.

An idea that has been suggested before is a help section like SEIII where you could get a lot of answers in game. That could be the best of both worlds those that want to know can look it up while they are playing and those that don't can just find out on their own. And it wouldn't have to be a printed manual.

[This message has been edited by Tomgs (edited 12 January 2001).]

[Atrocities]

I just wanted to re-address what this thread was about.

quote:

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First let me say that I think SE IV is the BEST conquer the galaxy game that I have ever played. However upon close inspection there are a myriad of things that need to be fixed in order to make this a time tested classic.
Having purchased the full Version of SE III years ago and watching the development of that game I am sure MM will make the corrections necessary and advance the present game beyond our hopes.

However I do think that MM needs to raise the bar on customer service. Now before MM or the loyal SE IV community take offence, please hear me out. I fully understand the obstacles that need to be overcome when operating a small business. For the Last two years I have had a struggling enterprise that for the majority of that time was staying afloat barely on a month to month business. However when the Last half of 2000 put us firmly in the black I invested that profit into adding more value to my existing product line and services.

As I stated in an early post ..when MM decided to take a short break during the Christmas holidays I felt that it was probably a long overdue and well deserved rest. I would also not be surprised to find out that MM probably could not enjoy their entire break without occasionally thinking about their product and the many things they would like to improve and enhance.

SE IV has apparently done very well. Selling out is always a good sign that a product is in demand.

SE IV was sold to us at the average going rate for a full commercial/retail software product. However they did not have the expensive of a pretty box and box art, nor did they invest much in their manual. Nether MM or Shrapnel has had to invest much if anything in advertising, and MM does not have the typical 12+ man crew for R&D. In a nut shell I would guess that financially things must be looking pretty good for all involved.

This is why I think that MM and Shrapnel need to raise the bar in regards to customer service and support . MM came back from their rest on the 4th and here it is the evening of the 10th and we have not heard a single word from them. I know that they are under staffed and working hard on the ongoing development of SE IV but , how hard would it be to drop by once a week and just give us a short progress report and answer a few of the questions that the people on this board have had.

In addition to this they need to get a better service provided that will not shut down their ability to receive emails. These are all things that are the cost of doing business. They need to take some of their profits from this game and invest it back into the company. Perhaps hire some help. I am sure they could get some inexpensive help from some people right here in the community. As much as I love SE IV and I think the team at MM is great. They need to start thinking big and expand their horizons. SE IV could be a runaway hit if they had a box with great cover art and a decent manual. I need not point out how fantastic the cover art for upcoming "Stars: Supernova" looks and thus gives the impression of a fully fleshed out and professional product. Just for the record I hated the original "Stars" game.

As it stands only the most dire hard fan of this genre will take the time and energy to pour over this game and absorb the vast wealth of material that is needed to be learned in order to have a satisfying experience.
Have I not played SE III and thoroughly read their wonderful 300 page manual for that game. I would be totally lost. There are many things that are not answered in the hard copy manual and the Online manual. Too many things are left to be learned from these message Boards and by trial and error. I would be willing to pay extra for this manual even though I feel we should have been given it in the first place.

There have been many positives reviews of SE IV and that will give the potential of many new sales for MM & Shrapnel. However since this is a mail order only product, many people will visit this board and others like it and I'm afraid that the number of unanswered issues, lack of a decent manual, occasional inability to email MM,and lack of timely progress reports, may hold back potential customers and leave the visitor with a negative impression as to what they can expect.

Nigel Wulf

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Again, very well stated.



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"We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats! They invade our space and we fall back -- they assimilate entire worlds and we fall back! Not again! The line must be drawn here -- this far, no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!" -- Patric Stewart as Captain Picard
UCP/TCO Ship Yards

[pathfinder]

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard:
Because of that the patch process is slower, at the same time though can you even get close to this much feedback with the lead programmer of any other game? If so I would like to know because I doubt it.

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The only other game I know of who has the programmer and such reponding to the board like this is Combat Mission: Beyond Overlord, a wargame by another indie company. The support by both companies has been superior to anything I have seen at other game developers/publishers (pathfinder gives a raspberry to Microprose/Hasbro).

Could it get better? maybe....*shrug*

Just thought I would put in my 2 cents.

Now back to the game.



[This message has been edited by pathfinder (edited 12 January 2001).]