maximum range vs weapon accuracy; warhead vs penetration

[zovs66]

Not to sound too weird, but one of the best investments in my gaming history was back in 2006 when I purchased both SPWW2 and MBT each for only $39 bucks, it really has been a fantastic investment with the ROI far surpassing what I paid for.


So sometimes it amazes me that not everyone owns the CD version. I have paid the same price for many a disappointing games and after wasting my money enough times I realized that SPWW2 and MBT are my main games.


Just saying, its well worth the cost of you enjoy MBT/WW2.

[Oche]

True. It also amazes me how both of these fine turn based tactical combat simulations have been underappreciated or even looked down upon (a very common excuse is having "old graphics") by many armchair colonels and grognards who are loyal to the wargaming tactical genre, whether those 'games' are turn based, RTS or mixed like the Combat Mission series. What i do know for sure is that 'eye candy' graphics do not win a fan base by itself.

[zovs66]

Originally Posted by Oche

True. It also amazes me how both of these fine turn based tactical combat simulations have been underappreciated or even looked down upon (a very common excuse is having "old graphics") by many armchair colonels and grognards who are loyal to the wargaming tactical genre, whether those 'games' are turn based, RTS or mixed like the Combat Mission series. What i do know for sure is that 'eye candy' graphics do not win a fan base by itself.

Not only that, how many games have been developed, updated, patched and fixed for over 18+ years?

The gift just keeps giving, thanks to both Don and Andy's dedicated and ongoing hard work.

[raginis]

Originally Posted by jivemi

Armor Pen Calculator can be accessed by clicking on the Utilities tab in the game startup window.

I still cannot find it through the Options screen, but the application was in the folder, so I was able to use it. It doesn't tell you how much warhead size affects penetration, and whether it varies depending on ammo type, so I'll just assume bigger warhead is more destructive (albeit harder to resupply).

No one has given a clear answer on the effect of max. range on accuracy - does no one know this? It sounds like a very basic question that should have come up before. I searched the forum but didn't see it. Intuitively, it seems that a weapon, especially an RPG-type weapon, designed to be accurate to 600m, should be much more accurate at 200m than a weapon for which 200m is the maximum range. But, my short test doesn't support that theory.

[DRG]

[DRG]

Originally Posted by raginis

No one has given a clear answer on the effect of max. range on accuracy - does no one know this? It sounds like a very basic question that should have come up before. I searched the forum but didn't see it. Intuitively, it seems that a weapon, especially an RPG-type weapon, designed to be accurate to 600m, should be much more accurate at 200m than a weapon for which 200m is the maximum range. But, my short test doesn't support that theory.

accuracy in game is more a function of troop quality than the weapon.....you can have the most accurate weapon in the world but it won't be as effective at hitting if it's being used by poor quality crew. Andy would be the one that could give a more detailed answer re : relationship between max range and accuracy but AFAIK firing something at 200m that has a range of 600m is not going to give any edge....just that you can fire it out to 600m whereas the 200m weapon cannot....and if you have elite units firing they will hit better than inexperienced ones

[jp10]

Originally Posted by raginis

"... It doesn't tell you how much warhead size affects penetration,

If you mean in real life, early WW2 HEAT rounds had a penetration 1.5 to 2.5 times their diameter. Modern HEAT is published as much as 7X Diameter.
This assumes the detonation is at 90 degrees to the armor face (0 degrees deflection) and at the proper standoff distance for the explosive jet to form. Most jets dissipate by 6 feet (2 meters).

There is no fixed diameter times X calculation since the increase in penetration depends upon internal material, explosive type, cone materials and cone angle designs. Tandem explosive HEAT warheads have been created to defeat reactive armor.

HEAT charges lose penetration if spinning so most accuracy is effected by being fin stabilized. RPG and LAW rounds were prone to wind effects.

[Mobhack]

We are not allowed to tell you anything much about the original SSI formulae due to the NDA with them.

Accuracy is very roughly where a 50% to-hit is expected on a default sized target, when the weapon is ranged in. But it is only one factor.

So a weapon with range 12 and ACC 3 isn't that accurate, one with the same range and acc of 10 is going to be more accurate over its range band.

Other factors come into play like the fire control and range finder, experience, target movement, target size, firer suppression, firer movement, current visibility, stabiliser etc. And ATGM are completely different from guns..

Most guns need 3 shots at the target to be ranged in fully, that changes with autocannons and infantry small arms which tend to range faster, and more specifically laser (>20 ranged RF) which only need a 2-shot sequence to range in if within range. Range finders can help at 2Xrange, and more if high FC, but inside basic range is the best.

Fire control mitigates targets movement and your own, and can also act a bit like a plus factor to your range finder.

The targeting screen gives you a "gunner's guesstimate" of the hit chance for the slot 1 weapon. Use the T key to bring that screen up and cycle through the targets with the N and P keys. the actual shot may of course differ form the gunners guesstimate - as the T key dialogue doesn't run the chance dice. Set yourself up a "firing range" test scenario with targets and firer dotted about the place (with snipers alongside the enemy tanks, to ensure they are spotted at range, if needed). Then see what the "first shot" chances are reported, then maybe fire at a target, and if the firer survives, check the new hit chance (allowing for any suppression etc). You may want to pick some sort of support AFV with only an MG to stop the range targets firing back, or edit out the weapons using the scenario design tools.

The main way to determine when its worth firing at things though is fom experience - just like real troops you will tend to get to know what is worth the shot, and what is not after some time playing.

What you will not ever see is some sort of SPI board-game "shift table" with about a dozen results depending on 2D6 that can neatly be tabulated. That is because the to-hit code like all other code is multiple functions that can call other subroutines which can call other subroutines, so the result you get will depend on multiple chance rolls - one shot may go down a particular rabbit hole, another may not. The targeting screen makes no chance rolls, so doesn't take any of the rabbit holes that chance brings into account (like applying any leader skill value modifiers for a nearby (say) company HQ).

So there really is no way to ever produce a To-hit "table", or even a utility that operates like the armour calculator. The armour calculator "fires" 1000 sample shots at each range "bucket" and only uses a simplified subset of the AP calculation in any case, there is no "going down the critical hit" path for example. A to-hit calculator would need far too many variables to calculate sensibly, whereas the penetration calculator is focussed on a few variables.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by jp10

If you mean in real life, early WW2 HEAT rounds had a penetration 1.5 to 2.5 times their diameter. Modern HEAT is published as much as 7X Diameter.
This assumes the detonation is at 90 degrees to the armor face (0 degrees deflection) and at the proper standoff distance for the explosive jet to form. Most jets dissipate by 6 feet (2 meters).

There is no fixed diameter times X calculation since the increase in penetration depends upon internal material, explosive type, cone materials and cone angle designs. Tandem explosive HEAT warheads have been created to defeat reactive armor.

HEAT charges lose penetration if spinning so most accuracy is effected by being fin stabilized. RPG and LAW rounds were prone to wind effects.

The AP calculator will show the difference up, if you have 2 exactly similar weapons but one has say 12 warhead and the other has say 3 as its a smaller calibre.

WH size can be added to the penetration value - so at long ranges a big lump of steel like the 152mm on the ISU-152 will benefit over a little tiddler like say a 57mm.

Warhead size is a major factor in chemical energy weaponry (HEAT and HESH). It is less so with AP shot. It is a major factor in HE penetration as well - if you want noticeable effect on armour then shell them with 155mm+ field guns, not 60mm mortars. (the base shell may only pen say 2, but may add up to the WH size, so say 2+6=8 pen on occasion. Plus HE hits anywhere on the target, so can get the sides and rear or top etc even if it is facing the firer)

Warhead size can be thought of as "calibre" but it also can be weight of shell, and possibly rate of fire if say an auto-cannon. It is a game abstraction.

Range is a major player with kinetic energy weapons. AP value decreases with range. A tank with a 100 AP range and AP pen of 12, that also has a HVAP shell with AP pen of say 18 but the Sabot range is say 30 will show the HVAP shell penetrating better at very short ranges, but the HVAP will drop quickly with the "shuttlecock" affect of drag on it and cross over the regular AP shell at some point and then be worse at longer ranges. A later model of the same gun may have similar values, but the sabot range being 100 instead of 30 as by then the sabot is not HVAP, but a proper discarding sabot APDS, so the light alloy frame does not stay clamped onto the shell and so no shuttlecock drag effect.

The AP calculator is the best way to see what sort of results you will get. The "average" is the reliable figure, the "best" shot may only have been one of the 1000 sample shots taken at that range bucket (HEAT and HESH do not have range buckets, as they are the same at 1 hex as 200).

[zovs66]

The main way to determine when its worth firing at things though is from experience - just like real troops you will tend to get to know what is worth the shot, and what is not after some time playing.

This is the gospel truth, when I am running my tanks (especially in a campaign), any ATGs that shoot at the tanks are priority 1 to kill. For my infantry guys any MG's are priority number 1 to kill. Otherwise bad things happens to my guys.


During one of my Eastern Front playtests (see my scenario conversions in the WW2 thread) I gave the AI some 75 ATG and two of them took out 9 T-34's before I could suppress and kill them. I did tweak the Experience up on the Gun 0 guy to help the AI a bit and it works as designed. The human will have to outsmart the AI in a few of those ones...