New Treaty: Cease-fire

[TerranC]

Originally posted by Arkcon:
Against a human, if they suspect you're going to abuse it, they'd just refuse. Unless they were real trusting and wanted a cease fire. Or planned to abuse it worse than you...and leave you to wonder which one is going to happen.

If they were trusting, they'd sign a treaty with you

More like both sides are physically and economically exhausted and both of them need a moment to rest and build up their forces and do it once more. Kinda like what happened between Holland and Spain.

[Skulky]

I want the ability to tell certain ships/fleets or sectors or whole areas of my galaxy to ignore treaties with regard to the enemy passing through.

Main example: When someone is colonizing in your space and you tell them to stop yet they won't and you don't really want to go to war or lose that 20% money bonus you can't forcibly remove them now, however i want to be able to selectivly target my allies ships or tell a certain ship or fleet to engage all races taht pass thorugh point X or some of them or only ships of these sizes or this class.

You wouldn't be able to do this to a partner or a military alliance.

You could also have your ships "demand a search" which has the other sides ship then check its own rules and decide whether to attempt evasion (if caught will be seized), submit to search, or attack. If submitting to search the ship will stop that turn and the other player will be able to see their cargo and their inards ignoring any scanner jammers, they might even be able to see their orders?

That could be a cool intel project, but i digress.

Basically i want to be able to punish an ally who isn't following my demands but not go to war. Only problem i see is everyone being allies with everyone and constantly fighting anyway.

[dogscoff]

For SE5, I'd like to see a "build your own treaty" system.

First up, instead of the current treaties and treaty grid, you'd have diplomatic status. Options would be war, neutral, allied, partners. Allied and partner can only be acheived by mutual consent. War and neutral can be declared.

The above would not represent treaties though. If I am partner with someone, I'm not necessarliy engaged in any trade or military co-operation with him. All the Partner diplomatic status does is to make trade and co-operation possible. Once a certain diplomatic status is acheived, you can negotiate a treaty within that level.

Treaty negotiation could be integrated into the "propose trade" feature. Treaty conditions would be things you could "buy" and "sell" along with other trade items like techs and ships.
Treaty conditions to be bought/ sold would include things like:

-Shared use of resupply depots (either across entire empire or specific locations)
-Shared use of Spaceports. (either across entire empire or specific locations)
-Allied ships repaired. (either across entire empire or specific locations)
-Trade allowed (like the current Trade Alliance)
-Research sharing (Like T&R)
-Intel sharing
-Shared view of ships in specified locations. (Like current partnership)
-Standing Orders (ie automatically pay 10000 minerals per turn, every turn)
-One off payments (like in current trades/ gifts)
-Automatic gifting of any new tech / comm channels. (Like current subjugation)
-Can view 3rd party treaties.
-Can / Cannot colonise in specified location.
-Can/ Cannot move freely through specified location.
-Maintain specified diplomatic status with 3rd party.
-More!

The items you can buy and sell would depend on your diplomatic status. For example, if I'm at war with someone, very few items on the above list would be available to buy/ sell. At partner level the entire list would be available.

For example, I want to set up a treaty with my neighbour. First we agree on a diplomatic status of "allied". Only then I can assemble a package (like the current "propose trade") to suggest mutual trade, with me giving him use of my resupply depots and him giving me 50,000 minerals per turn.

He counters with: mutual trade and research, he can use my resupply depots and he will pay me 30,000 minerals per turn. I accept.

As soon as I do that, I have to name the treaty and each item appears under that treaty name in a special "treaty window". From there I can suspend individual treaty items or cancel / re-negotiate the entire treaty.

For example, my ally does something to annoy me so I suspend his resupply priveleges. My resupply depots are immediately unavailable to him, but trade is still enabled and I'm still receiving his regular payment until he suspends it next turn. He also suspends the trade and research items. Although they are still enabled on my side, these would require approval on both sides, so trade and research sharing grinds to a halt and our 20% trade satrts dropping down to 0%.

It's a bit complex and slower than the current system but you can see how powerful this system could be, especially in multiplayer games. By seperating the diplomatic status and indiviual treaty items you have much more control over your relations with another empire: YOu can be partners with someone, but still kick his arse for colonising within your borders. You can cut off trade to your ally without your fleets going all shoot-on-sight on him.

Of course the AI would hate it...

[Skulky]

How would you enforce keeping people out places or not colonizing?

How about a non-combat clause where either you set it to no combat ever, only with specific orders, only in these systems, only in systems that have been claimed by my empire (though with a special addition you can gain passage).

This is a great idea!!!!! coudl even be implemented ina gold patch with option to use old sys (esp for AI)

[TerranC]

First up, instead of the current treaties and treaty grid, you'd have diplomatic status. Options would be war, neutral, allied, partners. Allied and partner can only be acheived by mutual consent. War and neutral can be declared.

-Methinks that you are confusing War and Neutrality with some kind of Defcon system. War needs to be declared to the warring party, and Neutrality is only declared to YOURSELVES, not others.

The above would not represent treaties though. If I am partner with someone, I'm not necessarliy engaged in any trade or military co-operation with him. All the Partner diplomatic status does is to make trade and co-operation possible. Once a certain diplomatic status is acheived, you can negotiate a treaty within that level.

-Why? Why do you need to be friends to have a treaty with others? Warring parties that hate each other's guts can still engage in a cease fire, a cold war can still generate trade between the nations and you can ally with lesser of the two evils.

Treaty negotiation could be integrated into the "propose trade" feature. Treaty conditions would be things you could "buy" and "sell" along with other trade items like techs and ships.
Treaty conditions to be bought/ sold would include things like:

-Shared use of resupply depots (either across entire empire or specific locations)
-Shared use of Spaceports. (either across entire empire or specific locations)
-Allied ships repaired. (either across entire empire or specific locations)
-Trade allowed (like the current Trade Alliance)
-Research sharing (Like T&R)
-Intel sharing
-Shared view of ships in specified locations. (Like current partnership)

-Standing Orders (ie automatically pay 10000 minerals per turn, every turn)

I'm not sure I understand.

-One off payments (like in current trades/ gifts)
-Automatic gifting of any new tech / comm channels. (Like current subjugation)
-Can view 3rd party treaties.
-Can / Cannot colonise in specified location.
-Can/ Cannot move freely through specified location.
-Maintain specified diplomatic status with 3rd party.
-More!

The items you can buy and sell would depend on your diplomatic status. For example, if I'm at war with someone, very few items on the above list would be available to buy/ sell. At partner level the entire list would be available.

-Well, that's not fair.

"Party A, we kinda need that shipment of food badly. Why can't you give it to us?"

"Party B, sorry, we'd like to, but we can't. We just can't. Maybe it has to do something with you being neutral."

For example, I want to set up a treaty with my neighbour. First we agree on a diplomatic status of "allied". Only then I can assemble a package (like the current "propose trade") to suggest mutual trade, with me giving him use of my resupply depots and him giving me 50,000 minerals per turn.

He counters with: mutual trade and research, he can use my resupply depots and he will pay me 30,000 minerals per turn. I accept.

As soon as I do that, I have to name the treaty and each item appears under that treaty name in a special "treaty window". From there I can suspend individual treaty items or cancel / re-negotiate the entire treaty.

-Shouldn't it be automatically named? (ie: You picked resupply depot loan to the Cue Cappans: CueCappan-Terran Depot Loan)

-Also, there should be a time limit to renegotiations. You wouldn't like it if I first agreed on one thing, then say something that I forgot to put in something, lets scrap the whole thing and renegotiate. Speaking of which, there should be an Addendum feature.

For example, my ally does something to annoy me so I suspend his resupply priveleges. My resupply depots are immediately unavailable to him, but trade is still enabled and I'm still receiving his regular payment until he suspends it next turn. He also suspends the trade and research items. Although they are still enabled on my side, these would require approval on both sides, so trade and research sharing grinds to a halt and our 20% trade satrts dropping down to 0%.

-Manual Withdrawl? I think it should be Automatic. Also, the trade should drop automatically and the Research sharing should drop in 5-10-15% depending on the severity of the diplomatic incident.

It's a bit complex and slower than the current system but you can see how powerful this system could be, especially in multiplayer games. By seperating the diplomatic status and indiviual treaty items you have much more control over your relations with another empire: YOu can be partners with someone, but still kick his arse for colonising within your borders. You can cut off trade to your ally without your fleets going all shoot-on-sight on him.

Of course the AI would hate it...

-Maybe generate macros for the AI?

[dogscoff]

-Methinks that you are confusing War and Neutrality with some kind of Defcon system. War needs to be declared to the warring party, and Neutrality is only declared to YOURSELVES, not others.

That's what I'm saying - you don't need anyone else's permission. You just say "I'm neutral/ at war with you" and the other party just has to deal with it. On the other hand, you can't say "You're my ally" if that empire doesn't share your opinion.

-Why? Why do you need to be friends to have a treaty with others? Warring parties that hate each other's guts can still engage in a cease fire, a cold war can still generate trade between the nations and you can ally with lesser of the two evils.

You don't need to be friends to have a treaty, but if you're not friendly then certain treaty items are unavailable. That's all I'm saying. You might trade/gift resources with your enemy, but you wouldn't share all your intelligence gathering...

Without the diplomatic status feature, there would be no more treaty grid and no mechanism for declaring war.

I'm not sure I understand.

Well, you know you can have a standing order with your bank to pay the rent every month without you having to make a manual payment every four weeks... kinda like that.
Part of a treaty might be the regular payment of resources (or other commodities) to another empire. Rather than use up your one communication per turn and waste energy manually gifting X resources every turn, why not have a feature which makes the payment automatically?

"Party A, we kinda need that shipment of food badly. Why can't you give it to us?"

"Party B, sorry, we'd like to, but we can't. We just can't. Maybe it has to do something with you being neutral."

Certain treaty items would be available for exchange at the war and neutral levels, just not all of them.
"Party A: We kinda need detailed information of the whereabouts of all your ships. Why can't you give it to us?"
"Party B: Sorry, but we have no diplomatic status with you. We're not gonna give that kind of information to a complete stranger. Agree to partner status and then maybe we'll talk about it."

-Shouldn't it be automatically named? (ie: You picked resupply depot loan to the Cue Cappans: CueCappan-Terran Depot Loan)

Maybe, but you might want to use more elaborate roleplaying treaty names. Also, I'm not talking about naming each treaty item as you've indicated above, I'm talking about naming the entire treaty, which is made up of many treaty items. The individual treaty items would be labelled with automatically- generated identifiers.

-Also, there should be a time limit to renegotiations. You wouldn't like it if I first agreed on one thing, then say something that I forgot to put in something, lets scrap the whole thing and renegotiate. Speaking of which, there should be an Addendum feature.

Again, maybe, but I think players should have the free will to misbehave, so that diplomacy can get "interesting" from time to time. You're right, I wouldn't like it, but then I'd just cancel the treaty and be more careful about trading with you in future. I'd proabably also add you to my "assimilation" list=-)

I like the addendum idea.

-Manual Withdrawl? I think it should be Automatic. Also, the trade should drop automatically and the Research sharing should drop in 5-10-15% depending on the severity of the diplomatic incident.

Those are details to be worked out. There may be times when you agree with your ally to suspend certain items, but don't want to re-negotiate a whole new treaty.

For example, I'm paying 20,000 organics per turn in exchange for 20,000 rads per turn. The same treaty also gives us trade and research, full resupply & space port sharing, intel sharing and a bunch more stuff. Suddenly my main farming planet gets plagued and I can't pay my organics. I inform my ally, suspend that one item and he can suspend his rad payment (or not, if he's feeling generous) until I'm able to pay again. With automatic treaty suspension, we'd both lose all the benfits of the treaty for the sake of one minor item.

Perhaps each player should have in their empire settings an option marked "suspend treaty automatically if ally suspends items."

-Maybe generate macros for the AI?

This is an SE5 idea anyway so maybe the AI wil be up to it by then..?

[dogscoff]

How about a non-combat clause where either you set it to no combat ever, only with specific orders, only in these systems, only in systems that have been claimed by my empire (though with a special addition you can gain passage).

That would be cool. I think a redesign of the treaty system would definitely benefit from a simultaneous redesign of the "can't attack alles, automatically attack everyone else" rule.

[ October 17, 2002, 09:26: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

[Gryphin]

Semi related:
An Intell project where one of your ships guns "Accidentaly" fires at an other players ship that is in the same sector.
Diplomat: "Sorry about that, You know how those things happen So, what about your activeties in the Weltrand system?
A ship ramming would even be better.

[ October 17, 2002, 12:12: Message edited by: Gryphin ]

[dogscoff]

Damn Gryphin, you are sneaky...

[Gryphin]

Sneaky? Moi?
Why thank you dogscoff
"The Tactics of Mistake"
:: The Gryphin Grins ::