Wishlist: a few wishes

[Imp]

Chuck the game crews actually do a pretty good job on ammo selection, I know because I monitored a tank comp on a hill as ammo was critical & they switched ammo dependant on range & target pretty well as penetration was border line for a lot of targets. I was actually quite impressed & yes they sometimes wasted the good stuff but put that down to the pressure of battle & getting it wrong or simply having the wrong type ready to go.
HEAT also has a much higher variation in penetration level to simulate getting a square hit or not as makes a big diffrence to the plasma torch.
No idea how much of a boost nor do I want to know but I have killed stuff with armour way over the penetration levels.
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There are more atoms in a glass of water than there are glasses of water in all the worlds oceans

[chuckfourth]

Hi Imp

Its a playbalance issue.

How many units in the UK OOB carry a weapon that fires a HEAT shell with lower pen than the AP shell, none.
How many units in the US OOB carry a weapon that fires a HEAT shell with lower pen than the AP shell, one, M3 75mm GMC (114)
How many units in the German OOB carry a weapon that fires a HEAT shell with lower pen than the AP shell, countless.
I started to list them but when there were 38 units carrying weapon 50 I thought Id probably made my point, ie
So...
The recent change to the ammo selection algorithm (Firing HEAT when it should be AP) disadvantages the Germans and doesnt afect the UK/USA. Because the Germans have lots of weapons that fire a low pen HEAT round and a higher pen AP round, the allies dont.

Heres a list of all relevant German weapons and some of the units.
77 12.8cm KwK44 Maus 214
61 8.8cm KwK43 L71
62 8.8cm PaK43 L71 PaK Bunker 147; Pillbox 538
228 10.5cm FlaK 38
48 7.5cm KwK42 L70
51 7.5cm StK42 L70
59 8.8cm FlaK18/36
60 8.8cm KwK36 L56 PzKw VI Tiger 376; Tiger 849;
47 7.5cm KwK40 L48 PzKw IVh 026; PzKw IVj (+) 027; SdKfz 234/4 075; SdKfz 251/22 170; PzKw IVh 377; PzKw IVj 745;
50 7.5cm StK40 L48 I stopped here, there are 38 units with this gun (weapon 50).
52 7.5cm PaK40 L48
46 7.5cm KwK40 L43
49 7.5cm StK40 L43
54 7.5cm KwK44 L36
230 7.5cm LG40 PAW
23 4.7cm PaK 183f
21 4.7cm PaK 177i
22 4.7cm KwK 173f

So Normandy, The Brits and Americans load the correct shell, Those careless Germans! about one in every 7 shells they fire isnt the "right" shell
So clearly the Germans are having a lot more "pressure of battle & getting it wrong or simply having the wrong type ready to go" moments than the Allies. (The Brits actually dont have any)

From
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerk...sd-kfz-181.htm
For the Tiger 1

"The hollow-charge Gr.39HL round....was sometimes exchanged for some of the HE load"

Suggesting HEAT wasnt popular and was seen as a substitute for HE rather than AP in the case of the tiger 1 anyway.

Best Regards Chuck.

[Imp]

Well you obviosly have a beef I will be honest & say don't know if ammo selection algorithm was changed, could look at version release notes to see but think not.
You could just be percieving it as changed, I don't bother tracking ammo unless its critical during game just get on & play once I have looked at stats for any new gear.
From memory & not realy paid attention HEAT gets used close up or at range once AP pen falls off. Probably uses close up as better chance of a square hit so overpenetration that will make it more powerful than the AP round. Its borederline which will have the best effect so either can be chosen.
As I said you are asking a lot of your crews if you expect them to always have the right round loaded.
What you seem to want is an algorithim that never fires HEAT exept at range & even then not till the 3rd shot with a high hit chance to preserve ammo.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Imp
I do know that the ammo selection algorithm has changed. I keep old versions of the game, Ive played whitmans senario in v6 of the game maybe 30 times now and he hasnt fired a HEAT round yet, as I said in my origional post.
Ive never seen HEAT have overpenetration any more than AP does, in my testing on average it performs worse and so constitutes a bad choice of ammo at close range. Maybe you could present some test results to support your overpenetration suggestion?
Im not asking that the crews always have the right round loaded Im asking that the playing field is leveled. If the UK and US never make a mistake loading their round neither then should the Germans,(currently they do) or if the Germans have to make mistakes then so too should the western allies(currently they dont).
Half right, I would like an algorithm that only fires HEAT at the range where it has a better pen that AP (or if AP is out etc , Im not writing the whole algorithm here) I dont care about waiting till the third shot. ie Im asking if the algorithm could be changed back to how it was, shouldnt be too hard I assume one of the current designers made the change as so is familiar with it.

Best Regards Chuck

[Imp]

Don't do tests Chuck just observe & overtime you sort of pick up stuff.
Not counting hitting a soft spot or warhead size AP at very short ranges seems to have possibility for overkill so Pen of 6 might give 7 or 8. Sometimes hits with slightly less Pen to but not as common.
HEAT has a much bigger range consider the listed Pen as more like an average it has more chance to deviate both up & down & does so by a greater amount.
Feel free to test but HEAT produces more unexpected kills & if anything I am watching the info box to decide what concealed weapon is firing at me or for asterisks.

[Marek_Tucan]

Originally Posted by chuckfourth

"The hollow-charge Gr.39HL round....was sometimes exchanged for some of the HE load"

Suggesting HEAT wasnt popular and was seen as a substitute for HE rather than AP in the case of the tiger 1 anyway.

AFAIK it has not have to do much with the popularity but with the fact it was cheaper to manufacture than "proper" HE and still went somewhat (even though less) "bang" upon impact.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Imp
Yes I tested this and you are correct, For the Tiger 1 firing HEAT about 1 in 16 HEAT shells will overpenetrate by 2 or more, For AP its about 1 in 50.

Though this is true it doesnt constitute an argument that the tiger should be firing HEAT at the firefly side armour at short range where both shell types pen is better than the armour. Just the opposite in fact, as the HEAT can vary down possibly below the armour value wheras the AP wont.
Best regards chuck

[stormbringer3]

I feel that it would be nice to be able to start with an AO unit that matches your main unit mix, at least in the infantry area, when you want to use units like mountain troops, etc. I know you can change your AO, but the overwhelming opinion is not to change it at all.
Thanks.

[Slane]

Talking about wish lists and like to haves:

I’ve had a couple of occasions where a tank has been shot up or immobilized and the crew has bailed out. Would it be possible to add a function where if you get the crew to the left or right edge of the map, which ever is the “friendly” edge, you can “retreat” them off the map. I’ve moved crews back as far as I can and then had enemy units pop up and gun them down.

[Imp]

Originally Posted by Slane

Talking about wish lists and like to haves:

I’ve had a couple of occasions where a tank has been shot up or immobilized and the crew has bailed out. Would it be possible to add a function where if you get the crew to the left or right edge of the map, which ever is the “friendly” edge, you can “retreat” them off the map. I’ve moved crews back as far as I can and then had enemy units pop up and gun them down.

Happens already so not sure what you mean.
Move any unit onto the grey border hex & they exit next turn, cant be fired at once on it though indirect fire may still effect till they vanish