Some random thoughts

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Ramm

[You have just described, in my opinion, the main detraction from SPMBT. The biggest reason many play this game is to get heavy tank action. Hence the name, Steel Panthers Main Battle Tank.

SPWW2 is named Steel Panthers: World War 2. By your logic people would be buying that game expecting politics and economics but strangely enough both games are subtitled "Combined Arms Tactical Combat" It doesn't say anything about "armoured combat" does it? Now.. if we had subtiled them " Games of armoured combat" you might have a point but we've been telling people since we first started modding the games in 1998 that Combined Arms was going to be our focus

What does the first line of the first paragrah of the Game guide say ""

What is WinSPMBT?

WinSPMBT ( Windows, Steel Panthers, Main Battle Tank ) is a Post World War II combined arms tactical level wargame derived from SSI's Steel Panthers: Modern Battles ( SP2 ) code.

It doesn't say anything about "armoured combat" does it?

We have told people for years these are no longer " tanky " games and the whole point of a "relatively" cheap man portable ATGM is that it CAN chew through the armour of a "relatively" expensive armoured vehicle and they hand them out like that to the infantry so those bright shiny tanks don't run roughshod over them and if you, as the attacker come charging over a hill without a "Combined Arms " force then they will quite happily kill your bright shiny tanks but had you lead with infantry or armoured infantry you would have found those AT teams and dealt with them the way they are supposed to be dealt with BEFORE your tanks were exposed to the danger.





Don

[Ramm]

I would like to make a minor addition to my post; I still consider SPMBT a enjoyable game to play even with the AFV relegated to support status. I have learned to live with this fact and have adopted a combined arms approach that minimizes losses to AFVs and maximizes losses to infantry (because infantry are cheaper its better to lose them. The combined arms approach works if you have something like a Merkava in modern times. This approach also works if you simply prefer to play in premodern times before TI ATGMS become a threat.

As for fighting size 0 TI ATGMS with aging soviet bloc "shiny toys" (that have been upgraded) I have not figured out a way that works to protect them while still deploying them in battle.

If someone has then I would very much appreciate hearing how to deal with it

Sincerely,
Andrew Nault

[Ramm]

Originally Posted by DRG

SPWW2 is named Steel Panthers: World War 2. By your logic people would be buying that game expecting politics and economics but strangely enough both games are subtitled "Combined Arms Tactical Combat" It doesn't say anything about "armoured combat" does it? Now.. if we had subtiled them " Games of armoured combat" you might have a point but we've been telling people since we first started modding the games in 1998 that Combined Arms was going to be our focus

What does the first line of the first paragrah of the Game guide say ""

It doesn't say anything about "armoured combat" does it?

We have told people for years these are no longer " tanky " games and the whole point of a "relatively" cheap man portable ATGM is that it CAN chew through the armour of a "relatively" expensive armoured vehicle and they hand them out like that to the infantry so those bright shiny tanks don't run roughshod over them and if you, as the attacker come charging over a hill without a "Combined Arms " force then they will quite happily kill your bright shiny tanks but had you lead with infantry or armoured infantry you would have found those AT teams and dealt with them the way they are supposed to be dealt with BEFORE your tanks were exposed to the danger.





Don

My mistake about the name

[Imp]

TI ATGMs. These weapons system platforms (especially top attack) should be, in my opinion, increased in cost by at least 50%,

I think the cost of these & modeling are fine, late era ones are expensive & compared to armour they have serious problems.
Limited shots
Poor mobility
Very vulnerable to suppression or the loss of a man.

The early ones are not very good more a deterent than a threat lucky to get a 50% hit rate technology moves on & they become very dangerous.
They are the modern equivelant of an ATG & guess what over the years they have improved to be a bigger threat.
But in some ways they are worse than ATGs, low rate of fire & ammo with a small team get a man or lightly suppress them & they can't fire it. Because of this arty on likely areas often means they can't function. Also while the easy way to find them is when one takes a shot its rare unless the firer moves them to safety they will ever get off a second unless of course they can't destroy your vehicle when you might let them. That makes the cost just about right 4 ammo & they still do not get to use them all without putting some thought in to it.
Without them tank tactics would be far easier because just like ATGs before them charging about with vehicles gets em killed & from a game point of view while combined arms seems far easier in MBT than WW2 due to several factors it is also harder in some ways due to others like ATGMs. If anything I think it is the infantry who have a tougher time of it in MBT compared to WW2 rather than the vehicles. Maybe thats because my infantry multi role taking on & worse finding most threats but they do it because they rule the battlefield. Generalising but a normal game poor old foot slogger takes heavy losses gets an area relativly safe big boys help out losses virtualy stop & we move on. Its not RTS charging about without engaging brain only has one result.

[narwan]

Originally Posted by Ramm

As for fighting size 0 TI ATGMS with aging soviet bloc "shiny toys" (that have been upgraded) I have not figured out a way that works to protect them while still deploying them in battle.

If someone has then I would very much appreciate hearing how to deal with it

Sincerely,
Andrew Nault

Easy answer. Plenty of artillery, area fire and scouting (including by heavy choppers).

Don't make the mistake of firing arty AFTER you've made contact. Fire en masse at places you don't want them to be while advancing.
When advancing your force and you're fairly certain the enemy knows about them hose potential trouble spots down with area fire from all those mg's your vehicles carry. That's what they're for and believe me, few if any will run out of mg ammo. Main job of mg's in all shapes and sizes is to force the enemy into cover, ie reduce the chance of them getting of a succesful shot or even any shot. Hit chances and ROF drop when a unit gets pinned. You got the ammo so use it. Poor it into that treeline. It gets even better if you can take a round or two to position some HMG and/or MMG squads to cover your advance as their splash zones cause suppression in adjacent hexes too.

Have advance units that can spot the enemy when he does open fire. It's a win/win situation, if he opens up on your vehicles caarying the scouts with those AT units you fear then your recon units have just done their job. Make sure you have arty zeroed in close by to let go at once. If they don't fire at your scouts and wait till your main force approaches your dismounted scouts (and off course you dismounted out of sight so the enemy doesn't know about the 0-size teams) should be in or move into positions to spot the firing units. Then the big brutes can fire on the spotted opposition.

And always be prepared to spend cheaper units to fix and locate more expensive enemy units. Part and parcel of the soviet shiny toys approach.

Narwan

[Mobhack]

MG fire is good, but 20-30 units of 100-125mm tank HE is even better for suppression. Add in a battery of 152 firing direct area fire from 3000m behind the front as well and things get interesting for any troops in that "suspicious" treeline...

The 73mm on BMP-1 is also good to add to a z-fire party, as is the 30mm autocannons on later ones.

Some of the units in your advancing phalanx may also be able to target spots 2-3 hexes into the tree line/village or whatever (depending on LOS and smoke) thus getting some deeper fires into the suspect patch.

The X-fire is of course entirely additional to the indirect assets in use to "mow the lawn" out in front of your advance. Apply liberally to anything remotely suspicious. Soviet tanks usually have 20 or so HE - so use 10-12 for the area bash, with a few kept for the fighting later.

Andy

[narwan]

Very true Andy. Personally I like to make a distinction between area firing at suspicious locations, ie when I haven't made contact yet, and area firing after contact (at enemy units that have fired but are not spotted yet or those that are spotted but where the bulk of my units don't have a LOS for direct fire).

In the first case I prefer just to hose liberally with mg's as these have lots of ammo. I tend to reserve the big HE rounds for the second job. Their splash area means I can hit one of 7 hexes and still get suppression on the unit I know is out there. Usually the ammoload isn't that big for those rounds so I'm a bit more picky as to where I use them for area fire.
For me the point where I start getting a bit more conservative with area fire with the main guns (area firing on known positions and much less on possible positions) is when the HE ammo drops to 20 rounds or so. It's not a rule that's set in stone as it depends ont he total amount of suppression fire I can deliver too. I will use it if and when I need it.

Narwan

[Wdll]

What about multiple rocket systems? Would you say they are sufficient for the job?

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Wdll

What about multiple rocket systems? Would you say they are sufficient for the job?

I keep those in the rear (if on-map) to fire deep area fires only, esp onto on-map arty as CB, or in the defence I use as an assault breaker esp if my troops are dug in and he is not. Shoot and scoot - they draw return fires.

Andy

[Wdll]

Thanks.

I don't know, I am tempted to try to play without any artillery just to see how it will go. I mean for me to not buy any.