does religious *need* the talisman?

[DirectorTsaarx]

Originally posted by PvK:
I think the War Shrine is good, because it lets you add combat bonuses no one else can get. That is, if you weren't counting on Talisman to make you 100% accurate anyway. Death Shrine is worth building too, but not worth a lot of racial points, though it does mean you can do more damage than anyone else with the same weapons. I'd prefer Death Shrine to Nature Shrine, if I had to choose, because Nature Shrine's effect is so slow. In fact, I think you probably should have to choose, since Nature Shrine and Death Shrine wouldn't necessarily be provided by all religions.

Without the Talisman, I think Religious would be worth less, though - no more than 1000 points. With it, it is probably worth more, except that smart players are liable to try to wipe you out before you develop it.

PvK

I think the Temporal trait has a facility similar to the war shrine; I forget the name, but it provides offense & defense bonuses within the system. The death shrine is unique - the only one I know of that provides damage bonuses.

That gives me an idea; maybe the talisman should be changed so that rather than "always hit", it's a fairly large (stackable) bonus, plus a damage bonus? At least that would provide more options for properly balancing the trait.

[DirectorTsaarx]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
/snip\
I guess it would be allright if someone wanted to replace the never miss Talisman with one that gave big bonuses to combat but still allowed for a chance of a miss instead. And then you could have different levels of Talisman with increasing accuracy.

Didn't someone do a mod replacing the Talisman with a mount? Using the mount for the weapon didn't change the size or damage, but increased the accuracy and cost? Seems like I remember that being talked about.

Geoschmo

Heh. I was posting my response the same time you were; maybe a combination of our ideas would work:

Change Talisman to a mount (or series of mounts), providing accuracy and damage bonuses, for increased cost and size. Increased size & cost to make up for the fact that it's no longer a separate 50kT component, and damage bonus to make up for the fact that (IIRC) you can only have 1 mount on a given weapon; which means you'd either have a Talisman-mounted weapon or a "Huge"-mounted weapon (or whatever)...

[Wardad]

Tne Time Shrine Rocks!!! It is a great Early Game advantage.
Boosts a whole system by 15% for less research and build cost than a system robotoid facility level 2.

Nature shrine is unique, 1 facility to improve a whole system. Great Late Game bonus for those really long games in a huge galaxy, if you build them early enough.

The War and Death shrines are OK, but they normally are not where you really need them. The facility slots could be put to better use. In the early game a 15% combat bonus is helpfull.

The Fate shrine saves the cost of researching Urban Pacification facilities. I heard the reduced chances for bad events actually works now? If so, avoiding a star explosion or deadly intel sounds worthwhile.

Yes, the Religous race trait needs a talisman. Maybe at a reduced bonus and reduced size.

Please fix the poor Crystaline race first!!!

[Baron Munchausen]

Tsaarx: The Temporal Tech field has the 'Events Predictor' which gives attack/defense bonuses but not damage bonuses.

The Talisman debate seems to kick up again every so often. How about making the Talisman have balancing DIS-advantages like a major defense penalty? Say it gives off a lot of radiation and makes your ship easier to track, for example. Also, give it the Armor ability, since it seems logical that it would have to be 'outside' the ship to work. This makes it easier to destroy with normal weapons, although this also makes it immune to armor-skipping weapons.

We've discussed it in the beta forums and there are several options on the table for reducing its power.

First, you could simple make it work only every X combat rounds instead of continuously. If it works only every the 2nd round or every 3rd round then it's going to be far less unbalancing.

Another option is to give it a strictly limited number of 'charges' to be used in one combat engagement. You should have to click a button somewhere to 'use Talisman' and then your shots for that round would be 100 percent accurate but one charge would be used. Set the limit at maybe 5 and it would be much less powerful. Having to click the button for many ships in a combat would be a pain in the butt, of course, and the AI would have yet another complicated factor to manage.

Finally, you could make it work only with a specific weapon, a special weapon which would be included in the Religious tech. This weapon would be less powerful than standard weapons or have some other disadvantage.

[ January 07, 2003, 16:01: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

[Suicide Junkie]

Didn't someone do a mod replacing the Tailsman with a mount? Using the mount for the weapon didn't change the size or damage, but increased the accuracy and cost? Seems like I remember that being talked about.

I'm sure more people have done it, but what I did was make a talisman mount that added 20% size, +999% accuracy, and no damage. I then bumped up the size of the regular talisman to 150kt.

So you can either use regular weapons for greater power per shot, or you can use talisman mounts to ensure every shot hits.

Whether it is worthwhile or not may depend on how much ECM the enemy is carrying, the sensor tech of the religious race, and the strategies they are employing.

For small ships, the mounts will be best, and for larger ships the 150kt talisman will eventually outdo the mount.

[rextorres]

Everyone keeps talking about how powerful the Talisman is, but it has been a while since I've seen a religious player win in PBW - which tells me that it is really not all that unbalanced after all.

I don't play against the AI, but if you think it's unbalanced there don't choose religious against the AI.

I suppose in on one on one game religious could be devastating, but IMO that isn't the way SE was meant to be played, but I guess that's another discussion.

[Pax]

If the Talisman were removed, and no other "goodies" put in it's place, I would call Religious only a 1000-cost trait at best.

Here's a thought for reqorking Religious, as it appears in stock SE4:

No Talisman.

Additional levels of the Shrines (4 to 6), allowing up to 2x the effect, for proportionately increasing costs. As it is, the War shrine is made pointless by the Talisman, and the Time shrine is only half as good as the System Robotoid.

Add in planet-only Versions of the shrines, as appropriate; perhaps call the Planetary ones "Shrines" and the System-wide Versions "Temples" ... ? Thus, the Religious player could forgo the entire Robotoid/System Robotoid line of research,a nd use Shrines and Temples of the Time variety.

Add religious-based training facilities -- with a slightly higher cap, say 25%.

That, to me, would be worth most or all of 1500 racial points. However, note that there would then be NO ship-based components at all.

[gregajs]

What about replacing the Talisman with component sized Version of some of the shrines? For example, a ship could be outfitted with a war talisman, or a death talisman. This would also solve the problem of many of their most useful shrine abilities only being available on the defensive.

[tesco samoa]

i think it is fine the way it is. If you want to change it mod it....

If you cannot beat the talisman then you have to change your set up....

In Dim 2x I went from being beaten by the talisman all game long to winning every battle against the talisman fleets. All it took was an adjustment of ships.

Here is a hint. Keep your fleets together when fighting the talisman player.

[PvK]

I think the War Shrine is very valuable, and I also think it is more interesting as a facility than as a component. Having a 15% two-way combat bonus that no one else (except Temporal) can match, for no maintenance and no ship space used is very powerful. Limiting to facilities is an interesting limitation, and creates interesting tactics as and against religious empires. It tends to be overshadowed by the talisman in unmodded games, but it's not useless even then. Unless, of course, your play style doesn't include using it.

PvK