abysia strategies

[archaeolept]

Caseus said:
For me, single player IS the game.

In multiplayer you have to contend with cheaters. You have to contend with people exploiting loopholes in the game system to do things the designers never intended. The actual fun parts of the game -- the huge variety of spells, magic items, and units -- are lost in the intense competitiveness of multiplayer. "You can't do X, that doesn't work in multiplayer!"

I suspect it's far worse than that. I suspect that in multiplayer, your race is merely a chassis for getting out the Big Summons. The incredibly diversity of races and units is virtually meaningless compared to the power of Ice Devils, Air Queens, etc.

Having never played multiplayer, I could be wrong. But I doubt it.


Caseus

you really are in no position to say. Frankly, you are quite wrong, overall. It is in SP that there is no diversity, because all tactics are about equally successful against the lay down and die AI.

[alexti]

Caseus said:
For me, single player IS the game.

In multiplayer you have to contend with cheaters.

It doesn't seem there are cheaters left since Norfleet quitted.

Caseus said:
You have to contend with people exploiting loopholes in the game system to do things the designers never intended. The actual fun parts of the game -- the huge variety of spells, magic items, and units -- are lost in the intense competitiveness of multiplayer. "You can't do X, that doesn't work in multiplayer!"

No, X works, but only in right circumstances. The fun of MP is to figure out which X will work in the current situation. Concerning the loopholes, there aren't many, and they are not significant, at Last significant ones got patched. But of course in the game of such complexity, no known loopholes doesn't mean that they don't exist.

Caseus said:
I suspect it's far worse than that. I suspect that in multiplayer, your race is merely a chassis for getting out the Big Summons. The incredibly diversity of races and units is virtually meaningless compared to the power of Ice Devils, Air Queens, etc.

Ice Devils, Air Queens etc are not particularly strong in MP. In SP they look strong just because AI doesn't know how to deal with them. Against human players, those ID and AQs will be dying left and right. It's true there's a period in the early game when you can safely raid many nations with ID or AQ, but that period doesn't Last long. After that they become just super-commanders (as opposite to super-combatants) who need a strong army to achieve anything.

The nation still makes a difference until the very end. Mostly due to the mages, national troops still remain useful though. Something has to make numbers in your army. At that stage distinction between most of national troops become minimal, however some nations (R'lyeh, Caelum, C'tis) still have national troops that can play distinctive role on the battlefield.

[Zen]

I'd say any stealth army has usefulness until the end of the game. Though my concept of "End of the Game" might vary from others, but usually until a decisive win or the game becomes to micro to play.

[Graeme Dice]

Caseus said:
In multiplayer you have to contend with cheaters.

There aren't many of those left with the current Version.

You have to contend with people exploiting loopholes in the game system to do things the designers never intended.

If the various gem-producing items and supercombatants were intended to be completely useless, then the game would have made them that way.

Having never played multiplayer, I could be wrong.

You are.

[Caseus]

Graeme Dice said:

You are.

What about the part where I said:

The actual fun parts of the game -- the huge variety of spells, magic items, and units -- are lost in the intense competitiveness of multiplayer. "You can't do X, that doesn't work in multiplayer!"

Am I wrong about that? Is Dominions 2 multiplayer free of rabidly aggressive, hypercompetitive players who destroy any semblance of fun in the game?

Do you have to use only certain key strategies or you might as well not play? Your own Posts seem to indicate this is the case.

So tell me about me being wrong, please?


Caseus

[Cohen]

I talk for MP experience.

Personally I prefer however Watchtower. Even if I pump out less HeavyInf.
First try with a combatant pretender, Caeseus, like the Ghost King that now as it is, it's like a jolly because he could do almost anything.

You could exploit Death til 3, that Abysya won't lost the gold income nor the supplies. But the population will die however.
Pick always magic-3. It's the lone way to have a decent research, considering your bloodhunters and researchers are capitol only (I mean those cost-effective, even a 200 gold costy ant.salamander can research).
For productivity, it's not that useful, soon the heavy infantry get useless AND considering that a rout in any battle == them all dead, AND the time you need to replace an army of them, AND a huge amount of time to bring them in an attack position, AND if in early expansion you get your way closed by another nation, or by a sudden appearing of 4 heavy cavalry province all neighbouring the new aquired province and you've to waste a turn to get back, you'll discover the Abysya Infantry is very poor for their cost. And with their low morale they'll flee very easily. You can consider Productivity only if you want extra gold. Your pretender should be the way you conquer indies, Abysya really lacks of a capable army.

About Air Queens, forget them. To have that research and air income you should find a lot of sages, or indep mages. Even if they're awesome.

I usually go at least blood-3 before any construction, and even blood-5 if my pretender is capable of binding Ice Devils. The lone Abysya benefit is that her blood hunters start with 2 blood, so if there's the devil race with mictlan you can forgo the sanguine douzing rods. But usually expect Abysya get outmatched in blood by Mictlan, default Jotunheim and Black Forest Ulm.
You need however blood 3, if someone go at war with you and you can't hold him at bay with pretender and heavy infantry (thing very very easy), demonbred can summon single devil, and warlocks can summon fiends of darkness.
They're good raiders if led by a Demonbred, they can't hide but they fly.

Fire Magic doesn't count a lot. Abysya has no real battle mages. With low precision, to be useful you've to send an entire battery of Anthemats in battle, and when you go to the fight the enemy could easily make a ring of fire for his most precious leaders.
Communion? Well Warlocks perhaps in communnion could do something, HEY but they're your lone researchers and blood hunters, unless you're desperate do you really send them into the battle?

However Abysya isn't one of the top five nations, IF there's another blood nation in. If in the game perhaps there'rent the 3 above, oh well, it's quite different.
Even in my opinion is one of the weaker nations.

[Caseus]

Cohen said:
Pick always magic-3. It's the lone way to have a decent research, considering your bloodhunters and researchers are capitol only (I mean those cost-effective, even a 200 gold costy ant.salamander can research).

Hear the ripping sounds? That's me tearing up my strategies. The thumping sounds is me banging my head against the wall.

Magic 3 because your researchers are capital only? Sigh. Should have been obvious but somehow I missed it completely.

I can't argue with you one bit about the HI. I abandon them once the IDs and Devils are out the door anyway. So skip Production 3.

Okay, back to the drawing board with a Ghost King this time.

Thanks Cohen! Your post was extremely insightful.


Caseus

[PDF]

Caseus, some remarks about beloved Aby
Scales : don't bother with Prod, get Magic-3 instead, and pay a better Pretender with Death-3 too ! With Aby I like a SC chassis with let's say 3 non-Abysian paths better than a RM.
The worst challenge with Aby (in MP) is to get a decent research IMHO, so Magic scales (and hopes of getting a Sage site..) are required.
Demons : Ice Devils are fine, but aren't at all Abysia-friendly - they radiate frost when Abysians radiates heat, you've got no way of getting them except through Pretender, Archdevils are much more "getting along" Abysia (ok, they're "worse" when compared all other things equal, but "all other things" are *never* equal !)

About MP: no, MP isn't a unfriendly jungle of cheaters, I play (way too many) MP games with a small friendly (and mostly French) group, and we enjoy the diversity of the game, play all races even if not competitive (Tien Chi, Mictlan..), do some roleplay, mucho diplomacy (and some backstabbing), play sometimes with mods, on unknown maps, with special victory conditions, and enjoy it THAT'S the game !!

[Huzurdaddi]

Cohen,

sometimes I wonder if we are playing the same game.

And with their low morale they'll flee very easily

Moral 11 is low? Sorry to inform you it is soild moral. Is it the best in the game? No. Is it soild? Yes.

For productivity, it's not that useful, soon the heavy infantry get useless AND considering that a rout in any battle == them all dead, AND the time you need to replace an army of them, AND a huge amount of time to bring them in an attack position, AND if in early expansion you get your way closed by another nation, or by a sudden appearing of 4 heavy cavalry province all neighbouring the new aquired province and you've to waste a turn to get back, you'll discover the Abysya Infantry is very poor for their cost.

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. All HI is move 1. They all have the same problem. Oh and for your 8 or so gold more than "normal" HI you get +1-+3 strength, a heat aura, immunity to fire, and +3-5 HP. Sounds like a deal to me. Abysian HI are excellent HI. Right near the top of the HI food chain.

But the population will die however.

Yes you will lose 1/2 of your population in 115.8 turns. Boohoohoohoohoo. It's a huge advanatge to Abysia.

Pick always magic-3. It's the lone way to have a decent research, considering your bloodhunters and researchers are capitol only (I mean those cost-effective, even a 200 gold costy ant.salamander can research).

Yes abysia is poor at research no doubt. However if you run the numbers you will see that those "useless" mages you can recruit away from your home province ( Anathemant Salamanders ) are actually just about as good at research as Warlocks/Demonbreds ( At magic1 best researcher: demonbred 2.67 RP/gold over 30 turns, Anathemant Salamander 2.96 RP/god over 30 turns ... at magic 3 Warlock Apprentice 1.76 gold/rp vs. Anathemant Salamander
1.78 gold/rp ... wow it's really close isn't it?).

But why let *FACTS* stop you from spouting your crap about abyisa? Keep it comming!

The lone Abysya benefit is that her blood hunters start with 2 blood

Yes poor abysia. Boohoohoo. Let's not mention that they have excellent HI, that they have extra points from heat and death, that their casters are beefy and can stand closer to the front line than mortals, that all of their troops are 100% fire resistant thus fire magic can be used as much as possible without worry.

No, no. Their *only* advanatge is that they have blood2 mages right out of the gate and can win the race to ID's ( assuming that your pretender can cast that spell ) quite easily. Oh, btw, that is a very nice perk.

They're good raiders if led by a Demonbred, they can't hide but they fly.

Good raiders? Demons are top tier magical HI. They stomp noraml armies flat. 25 devils led by a demonbred is a flying army of destruction able to defeat moral armies thrice their size.

Fire Magic doesn't count a lot.

Nope it sucks. Worth nothing. Remove those mages from Abysia. They don't matter anyway. What? You would not want them to do that? Why not? I thought it was useless? Guess it's not.

But usually expect Abysya get outmatched in blood by Mictlan, default Jotunheim and Black Forest Ulm.

Please define your terms. Outmatched? By what metric? The Warlock Apprentice is clearly more cost effective than the Jotun Skratti at blood hunting. Oh you mean they have a more cost effective blood hunter with the 1 in 4 Vaetti Hag's that have blood. But that's not going to help them get one of the 11 blood SC's is it?

Black Forest has a more cost efficient blood hunter? You don't mean the Member of the 2d Trier do you? I don't imagine that you do mean him, since he's worse than the Warlock Apprentice. Oh wait you mean the Vampire Count well those are nice and all. But they are not going to be blood hunting en mass for quite a while are they? And don't they have better things to do anyway? Oh and they have quite a substantial cost ... it's not gold however.

Mictlain. Yes the best blood hunting nation in the game. No doubt. They pay for it thought don't they? They *have* to blood sacrifice to stop dominion death. They have horrible base troops ( although quite blessable ). Their mages are capital only ( I thought you said this was a crushing problem for Abysia ). They pay through the nose for their power with blood. And well they should blood is *very* powerful. Yet abysia pays almost nothing in comparison. Weird. And amazingly Abysia BoH is comparable with Mictlain.

Thanks Cohen! Your post was extremely insightful.

Well other than just about all of it being wrong. You are right! Oh he is right about the GK. It's really very good currently.

[Graeme Dice]

Caseus said:
Magic 3 because your researchers are capital only? Sigh. Should have been obvious but somehow I missed it completely.

Magic 3 is a waste of design points usually, since the magic scale has diminishing returns.

I can't argue with you one bit about the HI. I abandon them once the IDs and Devils are out the door anyway. So skip Production 3.

That will result in you watching as somebody who didn't skip production 3 rolling over you in the first 20 turns.

Thanks Cohen! Your post was extremely insightful.

Cohen doesn't actually know how to play Abysia well, so I'd take his advice with a grain of salt.