TDM-Modpack politics in really big game

I notice suicide_junkie has some Posts as big as my file, so I am pasting the source of the previous post zip file into this post so it can be read without aol.

I am at turn 31 and have reviewed my plans for colonizing sphereworlds. I have 35 colonies now (20 sphereworlds). I have plans for 16 colonizing fleets (carrying 1000 population and 100 mines each) to depart within the next 10 turns. That takes me up to 51 colonies, which is considerably more than all but the Sergetti (48). Now that would be nice but there is a catch. In my experience the AI break treaty commenting on your taking too many planets at about colony 43-47. So I can get away with this burst of colonization, but with no trade treaties I will be hard pressed to continue my expansion to the remaining 210+ systems. I have questions.

1) Does the TDM-Modpack AI break treaty based on your total number colonies, or colonies in systems he claims, or on your colonies he has actually seen, or on some other basis ? I already know about the per attack location and per ally ship things, but is there any other factor I am missing ? Below is a racial anger summary percent allied/ per attack location. Following each race is regular decrease and minimum anger then relation. Last comes estimated number of colonies that will be ok. Is that minimum anger forever, or just when you first meet ? If I can believe this then I should make peace with the Rage until I go MEE now that he is over his initial reaction !! If the regular decrease is 2 and the race gets mad at 20 % and per attack is 2, then with over five colonies seen you lose ground every turn. Is that right ? If so then as the AI explores and sees more of my colonies, they will get angry very soon....

0/2 Eee -4/0 not met - any
0/2 Phong -4/0 brotherly MA 15 - any
0/2 Toltayan -4/0 brotherly TR 9 - any
0/3 Rage -2/30 moderate war - make peace ? - any

10/2 Cue Cappa -4/0 angry war - make peace ? - 20
10/2 Ukra Tal -4/0 brotherly TR 20 - 20
10/2 Colonials -3/0 brotherly P 16 - 15
10/2 Piundan -2/20 receptive MA 15 - 10

20/2 Narn -3/0 brotherly TR 20 - 7
20/2 Toron -3/0 brotherly P 20 - 7
20/2 Sallegra -3/0 murderous war - make peace ? - 7
20/2 Amonkrie -2/30 moderate TA 0 just did - 5

30/2 Abbidon -3/0 not met - 5
30/2 Drushocka -3/0 displeased war - 5
30/2 Cryslonite -2/20 warm TA 7 - 3
30/2 Sergetti -2/30 warm TR 20 - 3

35/5 Pyrochette -3/0 receptive TR 7 hmmm...... - 1
40/2 Krill -2/20 murderous just broke treaty but not war yet - 2
40/5 Xichung -1/20 Murderous (break soon ?) TR 20 - half a colony ?
The Xichung will hate anybody they trade with ! Is that right ? It seems they are as confused as the Rage! There must be some other factor operating besides regular decrease, otherwise they would have broken treaty long ago!

Ship Anger is also interesting. Nobody cares about ships except as noted below. Values are per no treaty/ per ally/ per enemy ship
Love allied fleets! Narn 1/-1/1 Toron 1/-1/1
Do not get mad at enemies! Amonkrie 2/0/0 Cryslonite 1/0/0 Krill 1/0/0
Ally ships ok Colonials 1/0/1 Piundan 1/0/1 Rage 3/0/2 Sergetti 2/0/1 Xichung 3/0/4
Mad at any ships Pyrochette 2/1/3

If I can believe that, then my relations with the Krill will be better if I declare war ! And is it my total ships known by treaty (impossible!), ships seen (not likely), or just those in systems claimed by the AI ? In any case it looks like I have a problem with the Pyrochette. I do not want to change any of the settings, but would appreciate any insights offered by the race creaters.

2) I plan on building battle cruiser (BC) yard ships with master computer, six engines, solar sail, quantum reactor, cloak - basics plus yard III and the remainder 500 cargo, which can carry a medium WP and build base yards for a new colony. It will be accompanied on initial entry into each system by three dreadnought attack ships (sweep 4x5, 7 PD, 2 WMG heavy mount) to kill mine sweepers. Next in the fleet is two BC mine sweepers with the basics plus ten mine sweep V for a total of sweep 100. The mine sweepers each carry cargo 1750. Next in the fleet is a minelayer BC with the basics plus 13 mine layers and two cargo to 1280. It is needed in case the enemy has sensors to see past the cloaking. Last is a light cruiser (LC) population transport with basics plus four mine layers and six cargo to 1740 to shift population and mines to secondary planets once the primary planet is planted. Now they go into an enemy system and park over an unused large planet near the center of the system. The yard builds a single engine colony ship in two turns, which plants. The next turn a cargo facility III is built, the minesweepers and LC transport drop 425 population (pop) and 350 mines (launch ten) into the planet and the yard drops the weapons platform. Then the minesweepers and mine layer return to a sphereworld system for more pop and mines. The planet and yard follow the schedule below while the LC is mothballed till colonies start planting (or it could mine enemy yard planets). The schedule is for a new system to plant a colony every turn with 100 mines and at least 14 pop. For this you need one base yard to build the colony, and five yards to build mines taking into account attrition from enemy attacks. You also need at least three yards to build attack ships or weapons platforms. Legend : CF3 - cargo facility III, UPC - urban pacification center III, SY3 - space yard facility III, BY - base space yard, NOT - not built yet, MIN - mines, LCT - LC transport, ATT - attack ships or weapon platforms, COL - colony ship, and time moves left to right.

prime col ------ CF3 UPC UPC SY3 SY3 SY3 SY3 SY3 BY4 BY4 BY4 BY9 BY9 BY9 facilities
Yard Ship ----- BY1 BY1 BY1 BY1 BY2 BY2 BY2 BY2 BY5 BY5 BY5 BY5 - return to sphere world
BY1 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT BY3 BY3 BY3 BY3 BY6 BY6 BY6 BY6 LCT LCT LCT ATT forever
BY2 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT BY7 BY7 BY7 BY7 LCT LCT LCT ATT forever
BY3 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT BY8 BY8 BY8 BY8 LCT LCT LCT ATT forever
BY4 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT MIN forever
BY5 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT MIN forever
BY6 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT MIN forever
BY7 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT MIN forever
BY8 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT MIN forever
BY9 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT COL forever

secondary ----- SY3 SY3 SY3 SY3 SY3 BY1 BY1 BY1 BY2 BY2 BY2 BY4 BY4 BY4 BY8 BY8 BY8 CF3
BY1 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT BY3 BY3 BY3 BY3 BY6 BY6 BY6 BY6 ATT forever
BY2 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT BY5 BY5 BY5 BY5 LCT LCT LCT ATT
BY3 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT BY7 BY7 BY7 BY7 ATT forever
BY4 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT BY9 BY9 BY9 BY9 MIN
BY5 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT MIN forever
BY6 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT MIN forever
BY7 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT MIN
BY8 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT MIN
BY9 ----------- NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT COL

Primary planet plants colony on turns 17 - 19* - 20 - 21* - 23 - 23* - 25* - 26 - 29 - 32 - 35 - 38 - 41 - 44 - 47
50 - 53 - 56 - 59 the * is by the colony not the base yard.
build if 18+ First secondary domed starts in 17 + 18 = 35 plants in - 38 - 41 - 44 - 47 - 50 - 53 - 56 - 59
build if 30+ Third secondary domed starts in 20 + 18 = 38 plants in - 41 - 44 - 47 - 50 - 53 - 56 - 59

If more attack ships are not needed then about three weapon platforms per colony can be built by the base yards during colonization. If the yard ship is not needed at the sphereworld, it can speed things up at the secondary colonies by helping to build bases. Two secondary are enough since the average is 28 planets per system. If the system is secure you can just have all planets do colony ships and skip the mines and weapon platforms. You now have 27 yards in system - an average of one per planet. While this has been going on the other colonies in system have been building facilities. The primary planet does turn 15-17 resupply for a total of four facilities, which is a large domed. It then switches to four colony ships to do the best planets in the system, using the stockpile of mines. Then it does attack ships, and later (when more mines build up) does colony ships or troops. The second secondary does a cargo facility turn 20 then a space port on turns 21-23, after which everything is TBD. Generally speaking every colony gets a yard facility and every domed also gets a cargo facility. This leaves two productive facilities per planet, about breakeven if minerals extraction. So while it would be very nice if the colony is not domed, it is not necessary. A typical large 120 minerals not domed will be 30k and domed are 3k each. The average will be 4.5 non domed per system and about 24 domed. So by about turn 65 after initial entry into system production can be 165k minerals. Since 28 worlds all running consume only 84k this leaves 81k excess - enough to pay maintenance on 12 dreadnoughts. The yards scrap to make fleet slots available unless really needed to build weapons platforms or troops. Until yards are scrapped there will not be slots for roving fleets since 255 x 27 = 6885 which is greater than the 5000 upper limit. The average number systems to plant per sphereworld is precisely six (five if I do them all). So if only two colonizing fleets are built per sphereworld the first two systems will be about 40 turns old when the fleets arrive at the fifth and sixth systems. The first two systems get 27 yards or less, 3-4 get 18 or less, and 5-6 get 9. Obviously you plant the systems with the most planets first. So the total will be less than 4500 yards at the peak. The system fleets consume about 254 x 7 slots and the colonizing fleets another 70 x 8 so only 2500 or so slots are available for yards. I would have to look at the planets summary, but I doubt that more than 60 have over 30 planets. Assume that 120 have 18 to 30. That makes a total of 550 original yards plus 1620 plus 2160 plus 350 = 4680. Hmmm.... I am definitely going to have to skip the yards in any system which can be secured by guarding the warp points.... Hopefully that will be at least half of them after I land troops in the initial invasion.

To support 70 fleets of eight capital ships requires maintenance of about 40k x 70 = 2800k minerals. I plan on an average of three yards per regular world and 14 per sphere world. So running most yards and colonies is another 1200k or so. I plan on 300k research, 700k intelligence, 2500k minerals, 200k organics, 800k radioactives, and 500k ship score to just under the MEE limit I set of 5000k. I scaled the limit by a factor of ten since the map has over ten times the normal planet capacity. I will mothball yards as I approach 5000k then unmothball them all to build fleets on the same turn, jumping my score by 3000k. Hopefully I will get tech early so that I can build the 70 fleets before I have to start mothballing. If so I will mothball as built to keep my score and maintenance low. My sphereworld production bonus should be or exceed 40 % by then and I will immediately build system robotoid factories. That gets me to 3250k/ 260k/ 1040k in just a few turns. So it will be (turn 31 now + 16 to plant + 7 UPC-SY facility + 9 yards + 9 tech + 21 int + (14+18) min + (6+5) rad + 3 org + 19 store) turn 158 before I can afford the fleet blitz (38 turns later than my usual 120). The sphereworld colony builds three yards and they each build three or four more. My plan is to store 15 million minerals and five million each organics/ radioactives to take care of the huge blitz deficit, building storage rather than facilities whenever I am within three turns of capacity. As my yards ramp up I will be building minerals and radioactives extraction to breakeven. Then I will do tech, then intelligence, then resume resource extraction. At blitz I will be deficit 1500k for 5t then 750k when the robotoids build, with 7500k remaining. The sphereworlds build minerals for twenty turns to reach breakeven (taking into account new colonies). The yards will have built about 12000 medium weapon platforms - an average of two per colony to be planted, but moving them from the sphereworlds will be a huge logistics problem (a trip each for 210 cargo 17250 base ships). I could build three times as many but even the sphere worlds cannot hold that much unless I take the time to build cargo facilities ! Alternatively I can split my cargo space to have 21000 x 20 cargo troops and send two troop transports with 150 large troops each with each fleet rather than building troops in new systems. The game should be over with all planets colonized by turn 250 if it does not break from range check error. I am definitely not going to scroll through 7000 colonies doing adjustments every turn ! Instead I will look at the ship list for what 254 colony ships have built and setup a full queue as I plant each colony. Also I will need base ships to shift captured population to the correct atmospheres if the game Lasts that long. Some of the AI are bound to surrender at blitz, usually three or four. What do I get out of this game ? I increase my racial score by 700k - a factor of four. It will interesting to see how the AI in the next game react to that experience level. My game score will be over 25 million - beat that !

Now my question is this. Have any of you done this kind of exponential growth scenario before rather than glassing the AI worlds ? If so, is my strategy on target, and can you suggest improvements ?


PS - I estimate 500 hours (2 months) to play this, so it is not recommended if you have other things to do !



[This message has been edited by LCC (edited 27 May 2001).]

Same as Last posting except I noticed something. Most of the AI see me as brotherly, but the ones with *** at the end of the line see me as Moderate. Now what file and item determines that ?

quote:

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Originally posted by LCC:


0/2 Eee -4/0 not met - any
0/2 Phong -4/0 brotherly MA 15 - any
0/2 Toltayan -4/0 brotherly TR 9 - any ***
0/3 Rage -2/30 moderate war - make peace ? - any ***

10/2 Cue Cappa -4/0 angry war - make peace ? - 20
10/2 Ukra Tal -4/0 brotherly TR 20 - 20 ***
10/2 Colonials -3/0 brotherly P 16 - 15
10/2 Piundan -2/20 receptive MA 15 - 10

20/2 Narn -3/0 brotherly TR 20 - 7
20/2 Toron -3/0 brotherly P 20 - 7 ***
20/2 Sallegra -3/0 murderous war - make peace ? - 7 ***
20/2 Amonkrie -2/30 moderate TA 0 just did - 5

30/2 Abbidon -3/0 not met - 5
30/2 Drushocka -3/0 displeased war - 5
30/2 Cryslonite -2/20 warm TA 7 - 3
30/2 Sergetti -2/30 warm TR 20 - 3 ***

35/5 Pyrochette -3/0 receptive TR 7 hmmm...... - 1
40/2 Krill -2/20 murderous just broke treaty but not war yet - 2
40/5 Xichung -1/20 Murderous (break soon ?) TR 20 - half a colony ? ***

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Also I am using Version 1.72 TDM-Modpack and release 1.35. Are they compatible ? There is something seriously wrong about my treaty with the Xichung. According to the politics file, the highest treaty they are allowed is non-aggression. So how come I have a TR with them ? Is it because I added them as a player then put them on full ai on and controlled by computer ? I got the treaty by giving a gift of 4000/3000/3000 resources with the treaty as part of the package.

[This message has been edited by LCC (edited 27 May 2001).]

[God Emperor]

LCC,
With respect to maximum treaty level, noticed the same myself in my latest game. The Shadows are limited in their txt file to Military Alliance but have gone into Partnership with the Abbidon.
Something doesnt appear to be operating correctly.....

[Daynarr]

quote:

---

Originally posted by LCC:
Same as Last posting except I noticed something. Most of the AI see me as brotherly, but the ones with *** at the end of the line see me as Moderate. Now what file and item determines that ?

Also I am using Version 1.72 TDM-Modpack and release 1.35. Are they compatible ? There is something seriously wrong about my treaty with the Xichung. According to the politics file, the highest treaty they are allowed is non-aggression. So how come I have a TR with them ? Is it because I added them as a player then put them on full ai on and controlled by computer ? I got the treaty by giving a gift of 4000/3000/3000 resources with the treaty as part of the package.

[This message has been edited by LCC (edited 27 May 2001).]

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Well, I did make Xi'Chung use only Non-Aggression treaty. In my games they (and Sergetti) never had any treaties higher then they should. I am always adding races as AI player not human (it is important, read on).

There is a bug in the game I have noticed; when you add an empire with human control and then change it to AI control (and turn on all the ministers) the game will not use all of the files for that race, but will use default ones instead. The file I am 100% sure that is not used by such empires is Race_Settings.txt. I wasn't sure if there was any other that the game doesn't use on such empires so I didn't reported the problem. Judging from your findings Race_AI_Politics.txt is not used as well, but Race_AI_Anger is. It would be a good idea to send a mail to MM with explanation of the problem (and possibly a save game) so that Aaron can fix it. I would do it myself, but I simply don't have time.

[This message has been edited by Daynarr (edited 27 May 2001).]

I just spent four hours reading all the Posts I could find using search on politics etc. My personal level in politics has gone from nonexistant to savvy. I am going to play this game over again from start and see if I can avoid those unnecessary wars. I will post again when I reach turn 30 and compare the original to the revised game.

quote:

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Originally posted by Daynarr:

It would be a good idea to send a mail to MM with explanation of the problem (and possibly a save game) so that Aaron can fix it.

---

Thanks I will.

[Q]

Thank you Daynarr. You just explained the odd behaviour I saw with the Borg race. They should only accept trade and research treaties, but when I monitored them (switched to human player and full AI on) they accepted even partnership. Because they have the logical bloodthirsty happiness type suddenly almost all planets where rioting without prior warning: they were angry about the treaties!
IMO the lack of the warning is another bug we should report to MM or what do you think?

In my really big game it is once again turn 20. Politics are as follows. Initial score/ rank in parenthesis, then current score/ rank (former rank), then current number tech levels, then current systems/ planets/ colony ships, then units/ ships/ bases, then wars-w/ no treaty-n/ treaty-t, then my relation with the race. I am at war with the Cue Cappa and Rage by their choice. I made treaties with the Drushocka and Sallegra and they broke them, but they have not declared war - cautious I guess. The Amonkrie (t17) and Pyrochette (t18) refused treaties. I have not met the Abbidon and Eee but should by turn 30. My homeworld planets all have three base space yards in orbit - one builds more yards while the other two are on repeat build of single warhead small mines. I have space yards 3 so production is faster. I am at 444k minerals defict 17k per turn. My minerals loss due to lack of storage since start of game is half that of my first try since I built yards earlier. I have only 61k organics at +11k because I swapped 200k to the Ukra Tal (organic techs) for 200k radioactives. I have 360k radioactives at deficit 4k. I have planted only the Central Rock/None and strategic sphereworlds. I did a careful evaluation of where I really wanted to plant and organized my colonization plan accordingly. So I deferred the nearest (nexus) planets except Central for my first two waves of colony ships. I am defending Central and nine of the ten nexus sphere worlds. I will get Nizzarum soon - delayed by Sallegra minesweeping and shortage of mines. I sent colony ships into AI home systems accompanied by a transport converted to minelaying carrying 42 mines in the minelayer plus 15 in the colony ship with only four population. I have three colonies in the Rage territory. It will be interesting to see if they can survive cut off from easy reinforcement. Low investment at high risk for very high return. The Last of 39 colonies plants in three turns - 17+ turns sooner than I would have planted in my first slapdash attempt. Except for Ike the original home planets are full on population, about to crank out a transport Battle Cruiser (BC) every 2-3 turns. The Ike nexus homeworlds have just now switched to building missile BC every 3 turns. I have planted then abandoned six ruins worlds searching for useful tech starting four turns ago. Notice that I have swapped ship building for base building. My "fleet" consists of four colony ships, five small transports, and nine small transports converted to minelaying. The new BC transports have range 100 with return option from three supply storage. They will defend themselves by launching up to ten small mines per turn using five minelayer two. They carry 3700 cargo - 500 population with 120 mines or more pop if less mines are available. Rather than refit they may return if I cannot move pop fast enough. At 3400+ 33% per turn I grow 336 every three turns but only move out about 500-600 so it will take a LONG time to shift my population unless transports return. I will send two to each of the colonies, starting with those furthest away. When all colonies have 1000, the leftovers will be split amoung the ten nexus systems for my second stage colonization. When I have learned ship construction 9 then I can build minelaying yard 3 base ships. They will park over unused sphereworlds carrying a cargo of 100 pop plus remainder mines. They will build a colony ship then base yards untill all have at least three base yards. Then on the same turn I will plant them all and see what happens. Until then I will limit myself to 39 colonies, which I know from experience is generally safe. Over forty colonies causes wars to break out even when not MEE. I have been number one since turn 12, and just fell to two this turn because I took time off to upgrade my homeworlds to yard 3.

Sergetti ------ (213.6/16) 494.0/01(01) - 59 - 05/23/3 - 0038/56/07 - 2w/0n/02t - TA Moderate
Clays(me) ---- (213.0/18) 462.8/02(02) - 58 - 20/30/? - 1426/40/18 - 3w/1n/09t - myself - 1st try
Clays(me) ---- (213.0/18) 472.2/02(02) - 59 - 28/36/4 - 1726/18/39 - 2w/4n/11t - myself - current
Toltayan ----- (213.1/07) 449.9/03(14) - 44 - 05/21/1 - 0184/49/00 - 2w/0n/01t - TA Warm
Pyrochette --- (287.6/01) 432.4/04(04) - 60 - 05/21/3 - 0365/25/05 - 1w/2n/00t - none - Murderous
Drushocka ---- (213.9/15) 430.8/05(09) - 47 - 06/32/0 - 0193/38/00 - 0w/5n/00t - none - Moderate
Abbidon ------ (217.2/13) 418.2/06(10) - 38 - 04/32/3 - 0198/34/00 - 0w/1n/00t - not met
Rage --------- (261.7/03) 408.4/07(05) - 52 - 09/22/2 - 0505/41/03 - 2w/2n/02t - War Murderous
Cryslonite ---- (218.9/12) 390.3/08(06) - 51 - 06/20/1 - 0192/30/02 - 1w/1n/02t - TR Warm
Narn --------- (257.6/04) 387.0/09(13) - 50 - 11/14/2 - 0292/30/02 - 1w/2n/03t - TR Warm
Amonkrie ----- (235.5/05) 386.6/10(08) - 53 - 03/44/2 - 0494/22/00 - 0w/2n/00t - none - Moderate
Cue Cappa --- (211.7/20) 381.9/11(15) - 42 - 06/21/1 - 0116/33/03 - 2w/0n/10t - War Angry
Krill ---------- (220.1/11) 375.5/12(03) - 41 - 04/18/1 - 0069/41/00 - 1w/0n/05t - TR Moderate
Toron -------- (278.8/02) 366.9/13(11) - 61 - 06/16/2 - 0662/23/02 - 2w/3n/06t - TA Receptive
Sallegra ------ (220.2/10) 348.3/14(07) - 51 - 05/27/1 - 0355/20/03 - 1w/6n/02t - none - Cool
Eee ---------- (223.9/08) 346.3/15(12) - 35 - 09/34/4 - 0246/10/00 - 0w/1n/00t - not met
Phong -------- (228.3/06) 333.2/16(18) - 43 - 04/16/2 - 0114/22/00 - 1w/1n/1t - TA Moderate
Xi Chung ----- (212.1/19) 332.5/17(16) - 39 - 06/16/1 - 1187/41/03 - 2w/0n/3t - TA Murderous
Piundan ------ (226.8/07) 328.1/18(17) - 49 - 06/15/3 - 1053/30/01 - 1w/0n/2t - TR Warm
Colonials ----- (220.5/09) 264.5/19(19) - 52 - 05/14/0 - 1379/13/01 - 1w/2n/2t - TA Warm
Ukra Tal ----- (216.0/14) 232.9/20(20) - 39 - 06/15/0 - 0065/16/00 - 2w/2n/3t - MA Brotherly

I am about to trade colonization tech for other techs to everybody and see what I can get. Researching by myself takes too long, and the trade with the Ukra Tal shows how highly they are valued. I swapped Gas Colony and PD 5 for Ice colony with a MA. Since the AI is ignoring the worlds they can already colonize and breathe, then I doubt that any great increase in their colonization rate will occur....
The following races swapped ships for units, lowering their score/rank - Sallegra (+178/-9/-3)
The following races swapped units for ships - raising their score/rank - Narn (-4/+5), Toltayan (-59,+19),
Other races increased both ships and units, raising their rank - Drushocka (+95/+10/-3), Abbidon (+30/+5/-1), Cue Cappa (+10/+10)
The Krill are starting to lose ground in their war against the Ukra Tal due to my trade of PD (lost 11 ships), but they have glassed two Ukra Tal homes already. But that is better for the Ukra than before when they lost three....
The Cryslonite have lost more (54 units and 11 ships) in their war against the Toltayan. See Toltayan above.
Basically unchanged - Sergetti, Pyrochette, Rage, Amonkrie, Toron, Eee, Xichung, Piundan, Colonials.
So far as colonization goes, I have six more than before, the Drushocka have seven more, and everybody else is within three of same. I should not have made peace with the buggers after they broke treaty the first time. Oh well, it was worth a try. I thought some of those wars were unnecessary, but it looks like I was wrong.
P.S. Was it worth nine days ? I think so! It knocks at least 30 turns off my estimated blitz date....
P.P.S. Also see postings "Colony in enemy territory" "Basic Stategy" (18 May), and "really big games".



[This message has been edited by LCC (edited 01 June 2001).]

In my really big game it is again turn 30. I am posting a Winzip zip file with turn 30 in Scenario/Mod Archive Space Empires IV Maps and Scenarios. Politics are as follows - original turn 30 score/ rank in parenthesis, then revised turn 20 score/ rank in parenthesis, then current score/ rank, then current number tech levels, then current systems/ planets/ colony ships with revised turn 20 systems/ planets/ colony ships in parenthesis, then units/ ships/ bases, then wars-w/ no treaty-n/ treaty-t, then my relation with the race. I am at war with the Cue Cappa and Rage by their choice. Once a race goes to war with me my policy is to never offer peace. I have completed race contact with Eee and Abbidon on turn 29. The Krill and Xichung are likely to break any time now. I am stalling them and the (new treaty turned Murderous) Abbidon off by offering a trade of organics for minerals every turn. Sometimes they accept, but in any case it keeps their politics manager too busy to do a break treaty. My ships are 14 old small transports with all but 5 fitted as minelayers, with the remainder battle cruisers, mostly fitted as transports. My trade treaties give me very good dividends, well worth the effort. See production and trade analysis below. This time around I only built small mines with one 300 kt warhead, which is 2/3 the cost in minerals and 1/2 the cost in radioactives of a two warhead mine, due to active (as expected) minesweeping. Three such mines take out a light cruiser, and a base yard 3 builds ten per turn. I am mining the ten warp points of Central with 100 mines each on both sides. I also will be mining warp points near the borders of my original home systems. My home planets have four base space yards in orbit on repeat build of mines or more yards. All colonies get four base yards, with the fourth building more yards. I may do fighters as a stopgap until I get shield tech 10 to do weapon platforms. I am building intelligence centers already - not going to get caught short. I have not built any research centers and do not plan to until I must, because my trade treaties are letting me research faster than anybody else already. Why improve the trade partners research ?

Clays(me) ----- (773/01) (472/02) 845/01- 116 - 30/39/00 (28/36/4) - 6891/39/73 - 2w/3n/14t - myself
Sergetti -------- (753/02) (494/01) 719/02 - 067 - 05/34/01 (05/23/3) - 0146/72/15 - 2w/5n/04t - TR Warm
Abbidon ------- (614/03) (418/06) 636/03 - 046 - 04/40/00 (04/32/3) - 0238/74/00 - 1w/1n/01t - TA Mod
Amonkrie ----- (520/08) (386/10) 616/04 - 061 - 03/50/02 (03/44/2) - 0527/52/09 - 0w/2n/01t - TA Warm
Eee ------------- (578/05) (346/15) 595/05 - 044 - 11/44/13 (09/34/4) - 0397/40/00 - 0w/1n/03t - none Mod
Toltayan ------ (446/13) (449/03) 587/06 - 055 - 05/27/00 (05/21/1) - 0228/68/00 - 2w/2n/02t - MA Bro
Cryslonite ---- (547/07) (390/08) 533/07 - 062 - 06/25/01 (06/20/1) - 0214/59/03 - 1w/0n/04t - TR Rec
Krill ------------- (494/09) (375/12) 517/08 - 049 - 04/20/00 (04/18/1) - 0079/70/00 - 1w/2n/10t - MA Angry
Drushocka --- (483/11) (430/05) 488/09 - 054 - 06/36/00 (06/32/0) - 0219/45/00 - 1w/3n/08t - none Rec
Pyrochette --- (554/06) (432/04) 479/10 - 065 - 05/29/00 (05/21/3) - 1011/14/06 - 2w/1n/02t - TA Cool
Piundan ------- (493/10) (328/18) 453/11 - 060 - 06/21/02 (06/15/3) - 1401/51/02 - 1w/3n/06t - TR Rec
Rage ----------- (588/04) (408/07) 453/12 - 060 - 09/27/02 (09/22/2) - 1202/50/03 - 2w/1n/04t - War Murd
Xi Chung ----- (420/14) (332/17) 439/13 - 050 - 07/21/00 (06/16/1) - 1996/53/06 - 2w/6n/04t - TR Murd
Sallegra ------- (468/12) (348/14) 428/14 - 058 - 05/31/00 (05/27/1) - 0387/21/03 - 1w/2n/06t - none Warm
Narn ----------- (410/16) (387/09) 422/15 - 057 - 11/18/00 (11/14/2) - 0953/34/02 - 2w/4n/03t - TR Bro
Toron ---------- (412/15) (366/13) 410/16 - 069 - 06/19/00 (06/16/2) - 1275/20/02 - 2w/1n/11t - MA Bro
Cue Cappa -- (391/17) (381/11) 399/17 - 050 - 06/25/02 (06/21/1) - 0156/30/03 - 3w/1n/09t - War Mod
Colonials ----- (336/19) (264/19) 384/18 - 064 - 06/16/01 (05/14/0) - 1644/42/01 - 2w/3n/06t - TR Bro
Phong --------- (362/18) (333/16) 378/19 - 048 - 05/18/00 (04/16/2) - 0097/40/00 - 1w/2n/04t - TR Bro
Ukra Tal ------ (278/20) (232/20) 243/20 - 047 - 05/16/00 (06/15/0) - 0067/17/00 - 2w/3n/06t - MA Bro

Except for the Sergetti and Eee colonizing is less than one per two turns. I have all I want for now. When I get more tech then I will risk colonizing the remaining sphereworlds. I have much more tech this time due to researching all the cheap weapons. I also got some good expensive tech when the AI requested MA. At rank #1 and brotherly, try this trick. Respond to the treaty proposal with an offer to trade MA for tech and select every tech you have not finished researching. I have recieved a bunch of tech twice that way! This second time around the Toltayan are doing much better, while the Rage are doing much worse. I planted three more sphereworlds in Rage territory this time, including a Rage home system - Fun. It has them really upset and baffled. Their minesweeper is a joke - armed with PPB and only sweeps four. Notice that the original bottom six are still the bottom six. The top three are still tops. So losers lose and winners win, no surprise. The Ukra lost three homes to the Krill, and the Phong lost one to the Xichung. Even though the Ukra have PD tech, they are not putting it on their ships to fight the torpedo Krill - dumb. When the Krill and Xichung go to war with me, it should ease the pressure on those two. In the meantime, let them suffer.

You might be interested in a production and trade analysis, ranked by total minerals. First is the original rank at turn 30/ current rank, then current rank by total score, then number trade partners, then values (in thousands). Order is minerals, organics, radioactives with each giving production/ trade/ total/ current balance rate/ stockpile. I left the total off organics and radioactives to shorten the line. Last is research giving production and total with trade included. Notice that the top seven are still top, and the bottom six are stll bottom except the Colonials moved up and the Rage moved down. Once again, winners win and losers lose. I am keeping my surplus low by building bases as fast as I increase production. If I overshoot, I can always mothball the least useful. I want 14 base yards above every colony to build fleets. The Xichung are running low on organics for their weapons. The Rage are running low on radioactives for theirs. Both should have planted a colony to produce more, but they are too busy building warships - the disadvantage of being xenocidal maniacs.

Clays(me) --- 01/01 - 01/14 - 158/253/412/+025/341 - 15/35/+43/330 - 17/46/+07/350 - 055/176
Toron ---------- 02/02 - 16/11 - 182/159/342/+271/500 - 19/19/+34/500 - 22/23/+24/520 - 103/128
Cue Cappa -- 03/03 - 17/09 - 137/189/322/+267/580 - 15/25/+39/500 - 21/32/+45/520 - 093/108
Krill ------------ 06/04 - 08/10 - 134/152/288/+139/540 - 14/17/+26/500 - 17/22/+21/507 - 062/071
Sallegra ------ 04/05 - 14/06 - 182/086/249/+186/620 - 33/10/+43/540 - 28/18/+35/337 - 101/105
Pyrochette -- 05/06 - 10/02 - 230/010/240/+186/500 - 16/01/+08/439 - 41/01/+21/500 - 092/092
Sergetti ------ 07/07 - 02/04 - 179/050/229/+123/540 - 46/05/+50/560 - 80/06/+77/600 - 088/095
Narn ---------- 12/08 - 15/03 - 159/065/225/+173/500 - 15/06/+19/500 - 22/08/+23/500 - 096/101
Piundan ----- 11/09 - 11/06 - 178/044/223/+124/680 - 17/04/+19/500 - 19/05/+16/389 - 056/072
Drushocka - 09/10 - 09/08 - 156/054/210/+115/580 - 20/07/+25/540 - 31/12/+33/600 - 098/098
Eee ----------- 14/11 - 05/03 - 183/020/203/+115/740 - 21/03/+19/492 - 95/04/+87/620 - 102/102
Colonials --- 17/12 - 18/06 - 141/059/201/+125/540 - 15/07/+20/500 - 20/08/+12/490 - 055/062
Ukra Tal ---- 13/13 - 20/06 - 086/111/197/+155/500 - 18/13/+15/520 - 13/15/+24/340 - 050/100
Amonkrie --- 08/14 - 04/01 - 191/000/191/+076/830 - 23/00/+19/561 - 33/00/+24/540 - 108/108
Cryslonite -- 15/15 - 07/04 - 133/052/185/+071/530 - 22/06/+24/530 - 24/06/+17/492 - 096/102
Toltayan ---- 19/16 - 06/02 - 156/025/181/+043/560 - 17/02/+16/500 - 34/02/+20/486 - 106/114
Xi Chung --- 18/17 - 13/04 - 115/063/178/+071/500 - 21/07/+06/126 - 15/09/+19/485 - 051/059
Rage -------- 10/18 - 12/04 - 148/029/177/+064/500 - 12/03/+12/451 - 17/04/+06/231 - 076/077
Abbidon ---- 20/19 - 03/01 - 151/002/153/+029/660 - 29/00/+26/560 - 52/00/+36/600 - 104/104
Phong -------16/20 - 19/04 - 113/034/148/+052/500 - 13/04/+16/500 - 23/05/+18/481 - 061/066

Was it worth the 10 days it took me to play the first 30 turns over ? YES!!

P.S. These tables line up ok if printed. Do a quote, edit select all, ctrl C, paste into a temp file, and print the temp file if you want it to line up.


[This message has been edited by LCC (edited 04 June 2001).]

[Alpha Kodiak]

Question on the Rage: are they still building colonizers at a decent pace? They should always have some colonizers either being built or in transit.

I've also noticed that they trend toward being short on radioactives. Originally they had problems with minerals, so I increased their bias towards mineral production. I think I need to tweak the balance very slightly. I think it is much closer than it had been.

I am currently testing a new Version of the Rage that is a little more efficient about expansion, and avoids a couple of circumstances that would cause overbuilding of defense ships, as well as certain units.

Keep posting your findings. They are helpful in balancing some of the trickier settings, especially on resource production.