when should you build a new fortress?

[Zeldor]

Huh? After first year you have 15-25 provs, so plenty of space for new forts.

[fungalreason]

Originally Posted by Tifone

3 or 4? will it not hurt the resources of your capitol to build it so near?

I don't think you'll ever reduce the available resources as long as you don't build directly adjacent to the capital, if I understanding it correctly. (I'm assuming it hasn't changed since the manual was written).

Capitals are usually admin 50 / 60. Usually you'd aim to build your cheapest available option for the second fort. These generally have a low admin value (30 or less). If you put the second fort a minimum of 2 spaces away from the capital, then they are only sharing a few bordering provinces. Provinces without forts in them actually have double the available resources that are listed. The resources provided by the admin amount are actually calculated from that "hidden" total. The capital can only draw 50-60% of that amount. As long as the admin value of the capital + the admin of the fort is less than 100, each fort will be drawing the maximum amount of production from the adjacent territories.

[Omnirizon]

I actually like to hold off until i'm into the second year to start building a second fort. But I'll then build two in quick succession so that I have three before turn 20.

All through the first year you will be able to exhaust your gold only recruiting a mage and as many troops as you can each turn, and you should. This will allow you to expand a little quicker. While I'm still in expansion phase I am unconcerned with spending gold on two mages a turn (not to mention a fort to allow that), and would rather spend as much on troops as possible. The extra expansion will pay-off in research shortly when you actually have the extra gold to recruit two mages and enough troops.

By the second year you will usually start having a little left over gold, especially if you recruit efficient (i.e. the best survivability to gold ratio) troops. Your empire will also be bigger and you will enter a spatial situation where you can benefit from recruiting closer to your front lines. With these two conditions it is time to start planning to build not just a second but a third fort; both almost concurrently. An additional bonus of this is that you will be able to choose prime real estate for your forts, rather than just whatever is available. For me, building a fort in the right place trumps the cost or build time, and is worth waiting for.

Maybe this is just my playing style and the nations I like to play (I hate nations too dependent on their capital, and like ones where the placement of additional forts can be very meaningful), but I find it is what works for me.

[vfb]

I've sometimes forgone an early second fort if I don't need it to build sacred or resource-expensive warriors, if I find a good site like a Library or Whispering Woods to recruit mages from instead.

And I don't like to build forts underwater without searching N1 first, but that can take a while with R'lyeh since N is rare on their mages.

[AreaOfEffect]

Again, it highly depends on the nation and the need.

If it is to hold a choke point or defend an important magic site, then some nations are better off putting that 800 to 1200 gold into PD. Other nations, like late-age Man, have horrible PD but are excellent at defending castles.

[Xietor]

When NOT to build a fort is just as important.

Never build a fort that you cannot defend. And never build a fort and leave it lightly defended. You can get away with lightly defending forts if you are an astral nation and have gateway researched, but it is a good practice to keep all forts well guarded. Nothing is worse than spending gold to build forts for your enemy.

And typically I hold off on building forts until i scout my neighbors and see if they are building forts I may want to take.

[Endoperez]

Originally Posted by fungalreason

I don't think you'll ever reduce the available resources as long as you don't build directly adjacent to the capital, if I understanding it correctly. (I'm assuming it hasn't changed since the manual was written).

Fortresses only draw resources from provinces directly adjacent to them, so if the two forts aren't right next to each other they don't have much effect. Manual explains it in detail.

I did it with MA Ulm, only recruiting Master Smiths and 10-gp heavy infantry in the early turns. On turn 2, I picked a direction that seemed to promise a good place for a fort and moved my starting army AND spy towards that direction. On turn 3, if it looked like I could tackle the independents of the second province (no knights, amazons, Knights of the Chalice etc), I again moved both my starting army and spy in there. On turn 4 the starting spy could usually start building a fort if I didn't recruit a Master Smith.

As I said, it's a bit of a challenge game. I did this with neutral Order and a non-SC pretender. It didn't ALWAYS work, especially if the independents around my capital were tough and restricted where I could expand. I was also so tight on money I couldn't recruit any independents, and had to alchemize few gems perhaps 50% of the time.

Originally Posted by AreaOfEffect

If it is to hold a choke point or defend an important magic site, then some nations are better off putting that 800 to 1200 gold into PD. Other nations, like late-age Man, have horrible PD but are excellent at defending castles.

Doesn't LA Man have one of the best PD forces in the game? I thought they get spear-and-shield infantry and longbows for PD under 20, and heavy infantry with crossbows for PD above 20.

[Lingchih]

Ahhem, Endo. Yes you can do that. But it compromises building your circle of supporting provs for the capitol. I would never do that.

[Endoperez]

Originally Posted by Lingchih

Ahhem, Endo. Yes you can do that. But it compromises building your circle of supporting provs for the capitol. I would never do that.

As I said, it was a bit of a challenge game. I'm sure many people would never play MA Ulm without a SC pretender and with neutral Order, or perhaps MA Ulm at all.

I still think it can be a nice thing to try if you don't know how early to start building a fort. In an actual game you won't do it like that, but you'll have a better understanding of what it takes to build the second fort.

[Edratman]

An additional major factor is what administration values your starting and second castles have. The range for each is substantial, especially considering terrain modifiers for second castles. The data base complied by Edi combined with the manual is the way to go. For example, if you are Caelum, with a starting 30 admin castle, you could plunk down your second castle almost anywhere without driving resources to zero in adjacent provinces. Or if you location allows building of a river fortress or swamp fort, with low admin, you could plop those anywhere also.

The low admin forts are generally cheaper and quicker. You may not be able to get many high resource troops out of it, but it would be a great site for commander building, allowing your capital to be dedicated to building capital only mages and your best troops.

As you can see, I like to build my second fort as soon as possible in a cheap site without regard to choke points or anything else for that matter. The second castle builds alternately commanders and low level mages, as a general rule. I found that I don't like nations that only have one fort build because of this aspect of my playing style.