Frozen Heart

[PDF]

Graeme Dice said:

It only targets one unit, requires alteration 6, and does less damage than both incinerate and thunderstrike. It's also the most likely spell to be resisted of all three of those, since it does cold damage. Making it also require a MR check would unnecessarily neuter it, since none of the other damaging elemental spells require magic resist rolls.

Yes but I think Incinerate is affected by FR and TS by SR, or isn't it the case ? (else I'm an idiot, if I had known that I'd performed better against those damned Ice Devils w/Ring of Lightning) ! [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img]

[PvK]

Well it would seem like frozen heart should only work on things that don't like cold. If cold-immune undead are being hurt by it, than I expect cold-immune ICE ELEMENTALS are too, no?

Whether various undead types should be hurt by frozen heart or not... seems unknowable - one would just expect the devs to decide and if you're lucky, to give hints before you have to try it in practice.

But there are some other effects in the game which mention hearts, and some creatures which might not be expected to have them (vine creatures, golems, claymen, elementals, mummies, horrors, illusions, ghosts, spirits, etc.) or not to need the ones they might have (undead), or not to mind them being frozen (ice creatures, undead).

The reasons I suggested MR AND CR for Dom 2 were that:
1) PDF reported CR was not protecting, but it seems like it should, especially since in Dom 2, I expect it is the only way to specify that a creature should be immune to it, like an ice elemental or mechanical man.
2) MR does already seem to protect against it, or so it seemed to me when I tried it. So I assume that is the devs intent, and wouldn't argue with it. Also, it seems correct, as it is a Water-1 spell, even if it is Alt-6, so otherwise it would be seem to me a really cheap automatic hit.

As for comparing to lightning, shock resistance IS currently working there, and it also requires hitting with a missile effect and accuracy (doesn't frozen heart automatically hit?).

As for comparing to incinerate, well that too is a weenie auto-hit spell which I believe is resisted both by fire resistance and by MR. IIRC, it requires more fire magic, but does more damage. Seems in line with frozen heart being resisted by both MR and FR, to me.

PvK

[Edi]

Most of the problem would be solved by making all lifeless creatures ignore heart affecting effects (like heartfinding), and just adding the lifeless tag to all undead and elemental creatures (elementals, seasonal spirits, elemental royalty). In this case the vine creatures are still shafted, aswould logically be manikins, mandragora nad carrion creatures (which are arguably a special case of undeath due to the vine animation). Then redefining Frozen Heart as not affecting lifeless cretures.

Edi

[Graeme Dice]

PvK said:
2) MR does already seem to protect against it, or so it seemed to me when I tried it.

Are you sure you aren't just seeing the results of a good armour roll on the part of the targeted unit?

So I assume that is the devs intent, and wouldn't argue with it. Also, it seems correct, as it is a Water-1 spell, even if it is Alt-6, so otherwise it would be seem to me a really cheap automatic hit.

Well, it's not like water has anything else going for it on the battlefield, so that's really not that much of an issue.

As for comparing to lightning, shock resistance IS currently working there, and it also requires hitting with a missile effect and accuracy (doesn't frozen heart automatically hit?).

Lightning has +7 precision, and the fact that it's A2 requires that you will already have a base precision of at least 12. 19 precision spells don't miss very often.

As for comparing to incinerate, well that too is a weenie auto-hit spell which I believe is resisted both by fire resistance and by MR.

Incinerate is certainly not affected by MR, and it tends to do less damage than the other fire spells anyways, so that doesn't matter too much.

[Endoperez]

Graeme Dice said:

Are you sure you aren't just seeing the results of a good armour roll on the part of the targeted unit?

Forzen Heart is armor negating.

Well, it's not like water has anything else going for it on the battlefield, so that's really not that much of an issue.

Instant hit killing one (non-cold-resistant) human or comparable unit is not that frightening by the time one has level 6 spells. It is almost always two because you'll already have Quickness when you get Frozen Heart, but unless your enemy has all-undead armies lead by few living mages I don't think it will be automatic win.

This was written as if cold resistance worked against it, as I think it should. Frozen Heart already doesn't affect any inanimate targets, by the description. I think that means Statues and Golems, and might include elementals and the like. On the other hand, I think it *should* affect elemental royalties. Both thematically and by game mechanics.

[PvK]

> Are you sure you aren't just seeing the results of a good armour roll on the part of the targeted unit?

If it were, then twere another bug, since Frozen Heart says it's armor-negating.

> Well, it's not like water has anything else going for it on the battlefield, so that's really not that much of an issue.

If it's not an issue to you to have level-1 skill give a spell that can kill or greivously injure humans regardless of armor with practically no failure chance, then your tastes in game balance are simply quite different from mine. Which is what it is and ok.

> Lightning has +7 precision, and the fact that it's A2 requires that you will already have a base precision of at least 12. 19 precision spells don't miss very often.

Ok, but it can miss, and I've seen it miss many times. AFAIK it counts as a missile too and so has another resistance. It appears Frozen Heart can't miss.

> Incinerate is certainly not affected by MR,

Ah, thanks.

> and it tends to do less damage than the other fire spells anyways, so that doesn't matter too much.

Well, to me, it is a good spell to compare too, and an importantly deadly one compared to others - even other fairly good (but not great) fire spells. Again, because it never misses and skips armor, and does enough damage to kill most human-sized targets in 1 or 2 shots. I've seen many folks get into the hall of fame just by loaning them a Phoenix Rod for a few battles.

PvK

[Graeme Dice]

PvK said:
If it were, then twere another bug, since Frozen Heart says it's armor-negating.

That doesn't matter. You still get damage + 2d6OE - 2d6OE even when a spell is armour negating.

If it's not an issue to you to have level-1 skill give a spell that can kill or greivously injure humans regardless of armor with practically no failure chance, then your tastes in game balance are simply quite different from mine. Which is what it is and ok.

If a mage that costs 100 or more gold can't kill more than that cost in units during the course of the battle once you've done much spell research, then you have a balance problem. A single expensive unit is vulnerable, and has to be able to do more (hopefully much more) damage than its cost in order to be worthwhile.

Ok, but it can miss, and I've seen it miss many times. AFAIK it counts as a missile too and so has another resistance.

Spells always hit if they land in a square with a unit. This includes the spells with single target areas of effect like lightning and nether darts.

[Graeme Dice]

Endoperez said:
Forzen Heart is armor negating.

That doesn't matter. It's still damage + 2d6OE - 2d6 OE, which can fairly easily work out to little or no actual damage with the small damage potential of frozen heart.

[Graeme Dice]

I've just ran some tests with frozen heart and Version 2.14. I tried it out against non-lifeless, non-cold immune troops such as ghouls and archers, against lifeless cold immune troops such as longdead, and against caelum troops. It will target longdead, if there are no other suitable targets, but will not damage them. It does not damage Caelum's troops either. It will kill non-cold immune troops, but not always with one hit as they may roll a lucky number for their damage reduction.

[deccan]

Thanks for the tests Graeme. That does help clear things up.