Early Expansion Question

[Velusion]

Ubercat said:
How do players maintain an expansion rate of 2+ provinces per turn early in the game? With the initial limitations of resources and gold, I typically don't have what I consider a reasonable beginning army until turn 3 or so. Plus, I often recruit a leader suitable for prophethood on turn one, raise him on turn two, and then he's ready to go with my first army on turn three. At that point you have no other troops and it will take another 3-5 turns to get a second force big enough to attack indies.

Bottom line, I don't see how you can have 12+ provinces on turn 12 without an awake SC pretender, or elephants.

Here's a related question. How would MA Shinumaya have the most provinces, about 7 turns into a giant MP game? Aren't their basic goblin troops just fast dying chaff? Isn't that too early to have their good summoned troops going?

See I usually base most of my pretneder/design around surviving and thriving in the early game. So if my nation doesn't have great troops like elephants or I'm not going the strong bless route I'll usually take an awake pretender. Another plan is to take advantage of any good mercs out there. One way or another I'll be able to expand fast .

In exchange for this I usually have below average scales (but never really horrible ones). And sometimes due to bad events or just bad luck I can't expand as quickly as I wanted to.

I'm sure not everyone agrees with my hyper-expansion ways though...

[Szumo]

For the MA Shinuyama question, i believe goblin shortbow archers are very cost-effective (as are monkey ones).

And the most important thing for fast expansions is to be able to take out indies without significant losses. Which means either combat pretender, good sacreds or lots of archers (preferably more than one thing from that list).

I try to take 1st province on 2nd turn, and start to take 2 provinces from turn 5 on. So i consider 20 to be decent result after 12 turns, anything less means you're not doing that well (may vary if map is crowded of course). If i run out of space during that time, i'll try to to secure NAPs with every of my neighbours except one, and rush that one to get his provinces.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Early expansion is very important. If the other players are roughly equal in skill, you can get away with less than 10 your first year. But you need a rock solid plan, order scales and no misfortune (luck may be bad as well). If you've got a specific research goal and your lab burns down or barbarians/plague attacks your capital, you're dead.

[OmikronWarrior]

To state the obvious: more=better(usually).

The game can be divided, roughly, into phases:

First phase- Taking Independent territories. The goal is to grab as many of these as possible. Depending on map size and starting position, this ends maybe around turn 12. Regardless, few nations are going to go to war when there are still indies to grab. A territory is a territory, and going after the territories somebody else has lets a third party grab the indies in the meantime.

Second Phase- Warfare based on national troops. Now that the indies are gone, a player has two options, peace or invade. Being Peaceful can be viable during the second phase, but only if its spend researching, site searching, etc. Merely defending attacks from an aggressive player is probably bad, as it will drain resources with out actually gaining you anything. Regardless, what fighting there is, is relatively low magic. Some nations might be able to mass produce sacred troops for a high bless, but mostly its going to be your normal troops trying to outmatch another guys troops. Thats not to say magic won't be used in this phase, it will be, but in general you fight with what you're given.

Third Phase- Magic becomes paramount. Summons, Globals, battlefield wide enchantments make any national army weak by itself. National troops still used, but only in support rolls. Thugs, SC, and items are the real resources.

Now, with all that in mind, DON'T FORGET ABOUT DIPLOMACY. If you're the biggest nation on the block, you also have the biggest target on your back. The second and third sized nations are going to start planning their strategies around you exclusively. Also, it may be wise to pass up some territories, because it will have you border more nations, which may force you into unnecessary conflict, or force you to defend beyond strategic chokepoints. Also, whatever you take you must be able to afford to defend. Whats the point of beating up on indies, when a well thought out enemy army can march right to your capital.

Other factors to consider: scales. Those with negative scales have to fight with fewer resources, and NEED more provinces to compete, fancy blesses not withstanding.

[KissBlade]

Most nations average 2 a turn with a pretender taking provinces and then their main army going for another route. Three a turn is relatively unrealistic in MP due to the likelihood of getting ganged if you expand that quickly. Though in the past uber bless strats have been able to defend pretty well, often there's player talent involved in that to make such strats relatively unsafe for most beginning players. An expansion rate of one - two provinces a turn is best though don't be too worried if you get off to a slow start, usually you can wrestle provinces away if you make some good plays against weaker players anyway.

[Velusion]

KissBlade said:
Three a turn is relatively unrealistic in MP due to the likelihood of getting ganged if you expand that quickly.

I should emphasize that when I say 3/turn on turn 7 I'm talking best case scenario. Usually geography/unlucky indy placement will force me to take less.

I usually run a pretty diplomatic intensive game - so I'm typically not too concerned about being ganged up on... but then I tend to play in large games where it's difficult to be singled out early amongst so many players.

[Lord_Bob]

My play doesn't use elephants for Patala, till turn 8. HOWEVER, while I will only have one expansion force until turn 8, on turn 8 I should have 4 expansions forces ready to attack, 3 starting at the capital though, and be able to field a new expansion force every turn capable of defeating any indie without casualities.

The problem is the candle doesn't get lit till Turn 8.

Is that way to late? I have a feeling it is.

[Aristander]

I have only played 2 multiplayer games but my experience is that you must start taking areas by turn 3. Don't get me wrong I am not saying you need to take at least 1 territory every turn after turn 3. However should need to start.
Do not forget Mercenaries they can be a great help the first couple of turns.
Early conquest around your capital dramatically helps with money and resources.
The 10 provinces in the first year is a good guide.
Some players like to make their scout the prophet to help get a jump on expansion.
Most players crank up the tax rate and patrol with your army the first turn.

[Endoperez]

He did have ONE expansion force before turn 8.

This depends on the amount of provinces you expect can be conquered before meeting another human. In very small games, that'd be too long. In longer games, it might work out okay. And if everything went just right, someone might attack you on turn 8 due to you being slow in the first turns, and then be pummeled into submission in a vicious counter-attack. Gandalf has mentioned a "breaking the dam" tactic that consists of gathering your forces in a relatively small space, waiting for someone to "break through" the indies, and then quickly annihilitaing his primary army and going for his lands. You might want to experiment with that. I doubt you could reliably win games with that tactic, but it could work the first few times.

[Edi]

One question I would like to ask the peole here, what sort of independent strength are you used to playing with? The default strength 5 indies are pathetically weak, while indie strength 7 actually makes planning your indie conquests important unless you're using superb sacreds or a SC pretender.

What is the most common indeps setting in MP?