What's wrong with this battle?

[magnate]

OG_Gleep said:
There are lots of ways to kill an ice devil. Ice Devils are classified as SC's, and there is a very recent thread on magic vs SC's. 20 resistance doesn't make them immune to spells.

That's true, and it looks like I'll have to rely on spells. It's a shame that they're unbeatable in melee though - they are only research level 5 summons with level 6 kit.

What weapon is the athame. I don't recognize it and I couldn't find it in the magic item list.

It's shown on the item list as "Blood Thorn", but once equipped it's called Athame.

The Naj has the ability to conifg a lot of different ways weapon wise. If the Athamme doesn't give fire protection, the dragon scale armor won't give 100% resistance to fire, so you could use any of the multiple fire weapons.

Vine Shield/Eye shield could also work.

And as Oversway mentioned there are a few +demon weapons that you could use. The flambeau does fire dmg + 3x dmg to demons. You could use 2 of them, 1 + weapon + shield or 1 + 2 weapons.

As I replied to Oversway, it's not dealing damage that's the problem - if Astral Weapon actually works as stated in the game, I don't need AP weapons or anti-demon weapons or fire weapons or anything special. If AW is buggy then my whole strategy collapses, because without the insane DEF the nataraja will not last long enough to kill them whatever her weapons.

Also, why not use more of the buffs you have available?

A3 has Mistform and Mirror Image
S3 gives you access to Astral shield and Body Etheral
W2 gives you access to cold resistance

Mistform vanishes on being hit with a magic weapon, so it's useless vs equipped SCs (I don't know if it protects from that first hit or not, but it's no better than Twist Fate even if it does).
Mirror Image potentially absorbs up to 4 hits, though I'm unconvinced by this - anyone want to argue in its favour? (Would you use it over Quickness, Personal Luck, Ironskin, Astral Weapon or Cold Resistance?)
Astral Shield is defeated by an MR check, so is pointless against SCs with MR in the 20s.
Body Ethereal doesn't protect against magic weapons so is the same as Mistform (and doesn't even protect against the first hit).
Cold resistance is a good suggestion though - thank you.

And if I'm not mistaken Naj are cold blooded...you could be going in with a stacked deck if the province your fighting in is cold. Not only does it effect you, but it buffs ice devils.

You are mistaken - the Nat is not cold blooded. Besides, the IDs are Abysian, so the whole world is boiling, and their cold bonuses are the least of my worries (in fact the heat is making them weaker).

CC

[magnate]

Saber Cherry said:
Attack is decreased by high fatigue. So after casting all those spells, with no reinvigoration, what was the Nat's fatigue? Also, if it fell asleep, the Ice Devils would hit it 100% of the time, and (IIRC) ignore the armor.

It didn't fall asleep. The Nat had fatigue in the 50s after buffs, with +3 per round from encumbrance. The returning kicked in when her fatigue was about 65, so she hadn't fallen asleep at all.

I knew fatigue lowered DEF, but I didn't know it lowered ATT as well - is it the same mechanic? -1 per 10 fatigue or something?

In every MP game I've played the player with the IDs has won. Usually it's me, but this time I decided to stay away from blood entirely and see if I could defeat them. The combination of AW not working on IDs and ATT reducing after fatigue from buffs makes an SC pretty unlikely to work. Which is ridiculous, since the IDs are nowhere near the most expensive summons, so why should they be the best SCs?

I'll try using spells - most of the best anti-SC spells seem to need E3 or more, and Tien Chi lacks earth mages (only the Celestial Master with a random pick in earth). Frozen Heart would ironically be the ideal spell vs Arch Devils, but not Ice Devils. Ho hum.

CC

[Oversway]

I've read that Frozen Heart does NOT check cold resistance, but I havn't tried it myself.

On the other hand, I've never heard of astral weapon not working. Especially with one class of monsters. I'm not that suprised it doesn't work with trample, however.

I'd still have a go at the ID with your nat again. If you were going for the high def ID with luck, missing all those times could be possible.

If still no luck, you could try a couple other weapons to test the theory. The armor negating dagger (I think its 1s1d) might help. A higher attack weapon - fire sword or better yet firebrand might also help you hit.

[DominionsFan]

I think that SCs including Ice Devils are a bit overpowered in Doms 2, afaik SCs will be "nerfed" in Doms3.

[NTJedi]

I knew items which had life stealing were being nerfed, but I didn't know the SC's themselves were also being nerfed.

[shovah]

even if only lifedrain is nerfed, most sc's will take a big blow from that (which is why ive been making non life-stealing sc's/thugs lately)

[OG_Gleep]

I assume your not using CB because Bloodthorns got nerfed.

If I'm not mistaken Astral weapon isn't tied to the actaul weapon dealing dmg outside of the weapon damage, so 3x multipler for deamons is still a very good thing.

I have seen Etheral units equipped with defense + luck give magic weilding enemies fits. Its just standard for me...any melee combatant with 1s casts body eth, astral shield and astral weapon. I never cast luck personally if I am concerned about the 5 script limit. Theres 2 really cheap ways to get it, and the other buffs are either impossible to get or really expensive. And normally I never do so end up casting the same buffs.

I'd run a solo test game playing two sides, get both sides equipped the same exact way, and play with your script, then if all else fails, play with your item config. That is if your only option is your one SC vs the two ID's. Massed undead, those Angel toting flambeus etc etc.

NT Jedi - In one of the threads there was mention that there was a sift away from SC's and more towards ground pounding armies.

[magnate]

OG_Gleep said:
I assume your not using CB because Bloodthorns got nerfed.

Correct. Will try CB one day, if Dom3 doesn't come out first!

If I'm not mistaken Astral weapon isn't tied to the actaul weapon dealing dmg outside of the weapon damage, so 3x multipler for deamons is still a very good thing.

Correct again - you are quite right that higher-damage weapons would be better, but my primary concern is def. So I'll replace the mains gauches once I've forged the Summit, Stone Sword and Mage Bane ....

I have seen Etheral units equipped with defense + luck give magic weilding enemies fits. Its just standard for me...any melee combatant with 1s casts body eth, astral shield and astral weapon. I never cast luck personally if I am concerned about the 5 script limit. Theres 2 really cheap ways to get it, and the other buffs are either impossible to get or really expensive. And normally I never do so end up casting the same buffs.

I promise you, Body Ethereal is just a waste of fatigue if your opponent has magic weapons. I would usually put a coin, amulet or a Faithful on my pretender and not script Luck, but couldn't in this build.

I'd run a solo test game playing two sides, get both sides equipped the same exact way, and play with your script, then if all else fails, play with your item config. That is if your only option is your one SC vs the two ID's. Massed undead, those Angel toting flambeus etc etc.

Well, I never did get to see how well Frozen Heart works against IDs. My god, my entire army, and my 26-strong mage cadre got absolutely raped. I'm not sure if it was really the IDs that were the problem - there were 30-odd devils who made my troops rout before a single Frozen Heart got cast.

It occurs to me that it would have been very different if I'd been defending rather than attacking (breaking siege counts as "attacking", so the sieging force gets to move first). Then the FHs would have started coming a round earlier and it might have looked different.

Ho hum. Off to try and remember how to play VGAP.

CC

[Vicious Love]

magnate said:
you are quite right that higher-damage weapons would be better, but my primary concern is def. So I'll replace the mains gauches once I've forged the Summit, Stone Sword

Watch where you point that thing! Only recommended for expendable, possibly immortal commanders. Ideally ones without any other artifacts.

[shovah]

if you want mass defence/prot go: 3 main gauches, accursed shield, black steel helm/spirit helm, that air armour that gives 3 defence (and possibly mirror image) chi shoes and cat charm/ring of regen