Warsaw Pact and TI

[Smersh]

IR sights where also retro-fitted to T-80Bs and T-80Us

[Marcello]

"M-84, from Yugoslavia had TI. That was a T72 with a new engine and other tweaks. So this would give a point where the USSR is not using TI, as the Yugoslavians had to add it specifically."

AFAIK the M84 used the DNNS-2 gunner sight.This was a good image intensifier but not a thermal sight.

[PlasmaKrab]

As far as I know and am able to find right now, the first TI tank sights used on Russian tanks were made by Peleng (now as PO1-KO1 model) from Thomson (now Thales) Catherine-FC-series IR cameras and offered as an option on the T-90. That means no TI sights at all before

From what I used to hear at the time, the Catherine was selected because Russian/FSU makers were unable to come up with equivalent TI optics. I admit that this may be Thomson bragging or post-cold-war propaganda, but the fact that the Catherine version itself posed so many problems to the Indians and that they couldn't replace them with some Russian version substantiates that claim.

I'm not sure when the first Catherines were delivered, but for obvious political reasons I'd say not before 1990. It was a highlight of the export T-90 from the start, but actually the baseline T-90 uses the Buran AIR/LLTV derivate of the old TPN series.
On the other hand, the Indian Army is the only certified customer of the TI-equipped version, so I don't even know if Russia has ever used it.

So I'd place a conservative estimate at 1999 for Russia, and 1989-90 as the most optimistic date (first T-90 service date anyway), in small quantities. Retrofitted T-80UM(1) in 1995-97.
And of course no TI capability at all before 1990, same thing for non-Soviet ex-WP upgrades (PT-91, Moderna...) which also used foreign-supplied optics. If someone can prove otherwise, I'd like to know.

[DRG]

Generally, in almost all cases what we had for tanks fit's into that time frame. What we had in the game was a number of Mi-24's equipped with TI long before that was feasible ( There was also an Australian bunker with TI in the 1970's that has now been changed ) The Hinds were the main "offenders" but there were others as well. Things like this multiply in the OOB's because people cut and paste a unit from one nation to the next so if the error exists in the parent then the "children" have it as well

Don

[JaM]

No Soviet Era Hind was ever equiped with TI. Only some of upgrades after 1990 like Mi-35M etc.

[DRG]

JaM said:
No Soviet Era Hind was ever equiped with TI. Only some of upgrades after 1990 like Mi-35M etc.

Right. And now all the Hungarian ( and others ) that had it back as far as 1978 no longer do.

Don

[Siddhi]

goodness how charming. i'll answer anyway.

correct about TI, however IR and IR-seachlight (which I believe is 20-25 vision i the game) was standard on all T-72s as well as most other WAPA AFVs from 1979 onwards. obviously IR and TI are NOT the same, different micron level entirely.in RL we call them 2nd GEN IR/IL systems, m60A5 IIRC was equipped with an equivilant system. i believe the menitioned "II systems" are starlight systems and 1st GEN (Vietnam-era), one level below IR/IL and two-three beneath TI.

ALL SOVIET HINDs were equipped with this system of course, as well as most ATGWs that I am aware of.

These sights SHOULD penetrate a weak smoke screen and give night-engagement capability up 2,000m under average conditions.

From Jane's Armour And Artillery (on the T-72 1975 intial batch)

"The other two crew members are seated in the turret, with the gunner on the left and the commander on the right. The commander's contrarotating cupola has a single-piece hatch cover that opens forward with two rear-facing TNPA day vision blocks. In the forward part of the cupola is a combined TKN-3 day/night sight with an OU-3 infra-red searchlight mounted over the top and, to either side of the combined day/night sight, is another TNP-160 day periscope. Forward and slightly below the commander's cupola is an optical stadiametric range-finder.

The gunner's hatch opens forward and has a circular opening for mounting the snorkel for deep fording operations. In front of the gunner's hatch is a TNP-160 day periscope, while a TNPA-65 day vision block is fitted in the hatch cover itself. In front and to the left of the gunner's hatch is a panoramic day/night sight, which is used in conjunction with the infra-red searchlight mounted to the left and in front of the sight. The gunner's sight is the TPD-2-49 while his night sight is the TPN-1-49-23.

According to former Soviet sources, the TPD-2-49 monocular eyepiece stereoscopic range-finder sight enables targets to be engaged out to a range of 4,000 m. It has a field of view stabiliser for its vertical axis. In addition the sight has a ballistic computer that performs calculations based on input data for firing a specific type of 125 mm round, the temperature and density of the air and crosswind speed.

Using this sighting system, maximum effective target ranges are 4,000 m using APFSDS and HEAT rounds, 5,000 m using HE fragmentation rounds and 1,800 m using the 7.62 mm PKT coaxial machine gun.

Using the gunner's quadrant fitted as standard on the T-72, indirect firing can be accomplished out to 9,400 m. For this role, the HE-fragmentation projectile would be used.

The L2AG (Luna-2) infra-red searchlight is mounted on the right side of the 125 mm main armament rather than the left as in the case of the earlier T-64, although it is occasionally mounted on the left side (initial production vehicles)."

[PlasmaKrab]

Don, I don't know if you've checked this one yet, but it looks like the MTLB-based Shturm (AT6) SPATGM is also credited with 40 vision in the current Russian OBF.
I haven't found consistent info about its vision system yet, but I'd tend to think it would have at best the same hardware as the Mi24P/V.

[DRG]

Becasuse it's start date is 1990 it could very well have it but I will dig around and see what I can find

Don

[JaM]

Sorry but you are wrong. IR sights are not LLTV. Soviets were using Active IR reflectors and they were easily to detect if used. Max Range was about 700-800m at max in passive mode 1000 in active mode. not 2000m. LLTV was in 1200-1500m region.

There was even a difference in IR lamps, For Example CzechoSlovak tanks (T-72) had better quality IR eqp than Soviet equivalents.

TI is something in completly different league. You need to try it to understand how big influence it makes on battlefield. US tankers are using TI even in day due to better detection range (identify something in 1.gen TI is problem at longer distances - over 3000m) TI Range is greater than 2000m, 40h can be used as a 1.gen TI, second gen TI are able to reach 4000m easily (Chinesse TI in Type98 tank have range 3000-3200m)

About Mi-24s , In Czechoslovakia we had Mi-24V,Mi-24D. They were not equipped with TI. Some of them had Active IR,but using it in night is suicide for the crew... too short range - all ADA units will know that you are there...