Dismounted PanzerGrenadiers coy.

[chuckfourth]

HI Claus
Yes I am well aware of the play penalties associated with the projected two six man rather than one twelve man grenadier squads. However if one is worried about the inherent fragility of a 6 man suad one could simply play the squads in one hex. Though this will not play exactly the same as a 12 man squad it is a pretty close approximation. Even though you disagree with a 6 man grenadier squad, I notice that the game is quite happy to field a 5 man paratrooper squad? When I raised this issue, the thread was ignored, so while I have your attention, would you be able to tell us what the 5 man paratrooper squad represents? And if it does represent a LMG team why isnt it 3 man and size 0 like those in the rest of the game?
Regards Chuck

[cbo]

chuckfourth said:
Yes I am well aware of the play penalties associated with the projected two six man rather than one twelve man grenadier squads. However if one is worried about the inherent fragility of a 6 man suad one could simply play the squads in one hex. Though this will not play exactly the same as a 12 man squad it is a pretty close approximation. Even though you disagree with a 6 man grenadier squad, I notice that the game is quite happy to field a 5 man paratrooper squad?

I dont object to a 5 or 6 man squad if that is how it was in real life. What I do object to is to start operating with half-squads when the game is really based on squads as the smallest unit. Much better to modify the transport to carry the full squad instead, IMHO.

When I raised this issue, the thread was ignored, so while I have your attention, would you be able to tell us what the 5 man paratrooper squad represents? And if it does represent a LMG team why isnt it 3 man and size 0 like those in the rest of the game?

I know it will be an earthshattering surprise to you Chuck, but game designers and playtesters are not put on this earth exclusively to serve you every whim and every call.


Claus B

[chuckfourth]

Hi Claus
The game is not based on squads. There are just a lot of squads in the game. The game quite happily represents single men, pairs of men 3 man groups etc ect ect. So as you cant actually present any reason why we cant have the 6 man squads I guess its because you dont like the idea?
Re paratrooper squads for someone who considers himself such an authority on the game and WWII in general its interesting how you duck this question, somehow I think there is something fishy?
Regards Chuck.

[DRG]

The size of the PzGren squads we have in the game will stay as they are now. That's a design decision. I am not reducing the ones we have now in size nor will I be adding new ones specifically for the Moterized PzGren formations. Again, that's a design decision. You could have 6 man Pzgren half squads if you open up MOBHack and edit them then see how all that fits together with the pre-existing PzGren formations then test to see how that all works in the game. That's why we provide MOBHack with the game.


Don

[chuckfourth]

Hi DRG
First I should just say Im not demanding that the unit appear in the game, I just point out that the unit exists and that its inclusion would make the game more interesting, If I can help get the unit in the game I would be happy to do so.
So if I mobhack them what am I looking for? I imagine that the formation could be created easily enough? by someone who knows what they are doing of course. Then am I just play testing the formation to see if it isnt to fragile to powerful etc? does it have to fit with the preexisting formations? wouldnt it be sort of stand alone?
And if I did this and it looked OK do I send a file to SPCAMO and they put it in the game, if they like it? or if I read your post correctly have we already decided not to use it?
So Many questions, so little time, Chuck.

[wulfir]

chuckfourth said:
The game is not based on squads. There are just a lot of squads in the game.

Oh, I'd say it's based on squads all right.

chuckfourth said:So as you cant actually present any reason why we cant have the 6 man squads I guess its because you dont like the idea?

I don't like the idea of half-squads much either.
I sometimes use Panzeraufklarer sections to represent depleted German squads. They don't have much staying power compared to full-squads...

[Smersh]

I had a sort-ev related discussion about smg squads being spilt up into 5 man tank desant squads. the reason being that they could also be mounted on light tanks.

Of course that was already present in the game, and this one is about adding a half-squad formation.

My two cents:
I personally don't like the idea of half-squads either. although these panzer infantry squad was carried by two vehicles did they not form up into a full squad after-dismounting? because in reality too, half-squads have no staying power. I can't think of a way u could model a squad reforming (after dismounting) using the sp engine.

[DRG]

We are looking into the PzGren issue but we will NOT be creating half squads to fit into vehicles. It's not going to happen. The idea of split squads reforming was discussed and rejected years ago ( remember... we've been doing this since 1998 ). The Motorized units will have AWD transport added when the patch is issued but they will retain their "standard" size and the transport carry capacity will be altered to allow that. It's a compromise. It's sometimes necessary. I will be going on vacation soon and when I get back we will finish up the patch then take most of the rest of the summer off and start work on the revision to WinSPMBT sometimes in August or September.

Don

[chuckfourth]

Hi wulfir
Well yes and no, you shouldnt compare a half squad to a full squad, you need to compare 2 half squads to a full squad. I believe a squad suffers pinning once it has lost half its members. So one 12 man squad pins after losing 7 men two 6 man sqads pin after losing 4 men each so 8 men. Also if they work in adjacent squares you have twice as much return fire to anyone that fires at them. So maybe 2 half squads less fragile than one full squad?
Best regards Chuck.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Smersh
Correct they would have returned to the full squad no doubt, but with 2 LMG per section they perform prettty well on there own as well. Though they cannot be "recombined" playing them both in the same hex is a reasonable approximation, they get twice as much return fire but also twice as much suppression.
Best Regards Chuck