The Bogarus Problem

[K]

Renojustin said:
There are lots of "turn 6 gods" that are fantastic fighters. So many that it wouldn't even be very productive to start listing them. But I'd invite others to.

Bogarus has a choice of 30 gods, and I note that only 4-6 of them are decent or good SCs. What equipment would you give them on Turn 6 that will make them viable (realize that you have no Earth gems at home and E1 on one flavor of mage)? How much magic would they need?

Basically, they have one choice: an E10 Cyclops with no equipment. He's good, but he won't stand up to any decent Turn 6 Dual-Bless rush wgo can just fatigue him out and crit him to death. Heck, he won't even stand up to a decent amount of crossbowman or calvary.

[Micah]

If you're proposing sending in a god solo and naked to stop double blessed jags you're thinking about it wrong. Another 5 provinces worth of expansion is another 500 or so gold on turn 6, along wth faster resource income to your cap and more indies...another 50 archers in your army is gonna put a dent in a block of 20 jags.

The extra dom from an awake pretender will give you a better chance to have friendly dominion, and that +1 morale is vital when dealing with PD level troops that are just there to die and slow up the assault. Putting a cyclops fresh from +5 dom in the middle of a formation is unlikely to get him killed, but it's keeping 3 jags tied up swinging at a rock instead of slaughtering PD. Having a dragon that can fly around and pick off provinces will do a lot of economic damage...it doesnt't take too long for Bogarus to get up to some nice evo or flaming arrows with their 12 RP mages, so you only have to stop one rush and you're in the game...5 provinces on turn 6 is a pretty big deal, even if your pretender isn't gonna fight off the rush singlehandedly.

[sector24]

You can have an enchanted sword, fire plate, and a pendant of luck on turn 6. Might be too late, but then again might not...

[K]

sector24 said:
You can have an enchanted sword, fire plate, and a pendant of luck on turn 6. Might be too late, but then again might not...

Not the most impressive SC equipment, and it means you shot straight for Con 2 and made everything on Turn 5 to equip on Turn 6. Without equipment, your Turn 6 Cyclops is lucky to not be blind or dead because he hit something surprising that didn't show up like some calvary or crossbowman.

[sector24]

I'm not sure what you are arguing. Should Bogarus players give up on a military counter against the rush since apparently nothing is going to work except diplomacy and the divine pity of their neighbors? Or should they just do whatever they want because there aren't a lot of dual bless rushers in the late age? I'm kidding (a little).

Personally, I would take an awake PoD with D5/E4 and get Con 2 immediately just for the deterrent effect that it might have. Anything less and you may as well have not bothered signing up to play. Maybe you're going to get rolled, but at least you put up a good fight and maybe earned a little respect from your opponent when the next game rolls around.

[K]

I'm arguing (probably in vain) that you don't need a poorly equipped SC to beat back an early Bless rush with this nation. They have good province defense, archers, and access to Smiters, and that's a perfectly good counter to Bless Rushers.

In my mind, Awake SC gods are a gamble for people who can't come up with a more reliable strategy. Add that to the fact that it messes with your mid- and endgame, and I just can't recommend it.

[JimMorrison]

So you're saying that you would trade a 50% chance of surviving the early game with a 10% chance of victory, for an 80% chance of surviving the early game, with a 5% chance of victory?

I really have to say, there isn't much in the game that will earn less respect from me in the game, than someone running around with an awake PoD. Not that I disrespect those people, but it's like going out and buying yourself a Corvette on your 40th birthday. >.>

Generally in my experience - it's highly improbable to have your awake SC, with dom9-10 and self buffing ability - and also have good enough scales that you can support your conventional army expanding AND have mages for researching and eventual forging. Hell, I have tried out so many builds for 10-12 turns, and depending on quality of neighboring provinces, sometimes a really high scales build has trouble keeping up with mages.

With Cold3, a D5/E4 PoD with 10 dom has 53 design points left over. That's 1 scale. So do you go Sloth3 to get Magic1 and Order 3? So your opponent knows, as potentially frightening as your pretender is, you have squat for troops. Yes, you can still claim that the awake PoD is still an effective deterrent. People know that even if they can take you, you can make it costly and painful for them, negating the benefit of performing the early rush. I would think that having large numbers of highly mobile and multi-purpose cavalry units, would be able to provide similar deterrent effect, especially if your research is doing well.

I'm not trying to claim that an awake pretender is never worth it - obviously people often win with them - I am just saying that if your primary incentive is to use it to dissuade people from rushing you out, it's more of a placebo effect in most cases, than anything else. I'd just rather get eliminated by an early rush several times in a row (how improbable would that be?) before finally getting a good solid start, than to spend 2 months playing a nation with gimped scales, clinging to the small shred of a chance that I might actually ultimately win the game.


I guess here is the crux of my argument:

Most of the highly experienced MP vets recommend an awake pretender for Bogarus.

Bogarus has not won a single MP game yet.

Therefore, it seems to me, that playing what looks like the longer odds of going for better scales or a more magically apt pretender, may be the missing link in their success.


I know I'm crazy, but that doesn't interfere with my ability to use the internets!

[JimMorrison]

K said:
I'm arguing (probably in vain) that you don't need a poorly equipped SC to beat back an early Bless rush with this nation. They have good province defense, archers, and access to Smiters, and that's a perfectly good counter to Bless Rushers.

In my mind, Awake SC gods are a gamble for people who can't come up with a more reliable strategy. Add that to the fact that it messes with your mid- and endgame, and I just can't recommend it.

You just summed up most of what I was posting, without getting sidetracked with all the gory little details. I need to work on that, I get so effuse that I practically beg for someone to pick at my logic, rather than just cleanly laying down a position. Good show!

[chrispedersen]

What is your Bogarus Pretender and army to stand up to a turn 6 bless.

Wonder if anyone could run it .. like they ran the SC competition...

[sector24]

We can agree to disagree, but try a build like this:

Awake PoD
5 Death
4 Earth
Dominion 10
Order 3
Sloth 1
Cold 3
Growth 1
Luck 0
Drain 2
13 points remaining

Bogarus prefers cold 2 and they are arguably the best nation to take drain with. Their research is insane, and most powerful magic is done with communions so you are in control of your own fatigue situation by using more slaves.

Your starting national troops can only take the easy strength 5 independents. You will probably be supplementing that army rather than building a 2nd expansion force, so all you can hope for is 1 province per turn. If someone sees that you are their neighbor and they take a look at the score graphs, you are dead. An awake PoD doubles your expansion rate, and unlike a cyclops it can fly and pick provinces where the chance of afflictions is lower.

Bogarus' mid-game and end-game are already secure. They just need to survive the first 20 turns, and part of that is convincing your opponents that you're not the easiest target on the map (which you are).

Maybe you're a silver-tongued devil and you can convince your neighbors to leave you alone, or maybe you'd prefer getting knocked out on turn 9 if you can't win the whole thing, but if either is the case Bogarus doesn't sound like your cup of tea anyway.