Conceptual Balance Mod 1.84

[llamabeast]

Valerius - possibly, think this will have to wait for the next version as I have now run out of steam.

Posting a new version seems to prompt a lot of bug reports! I will be more likely to fix them if they come earlier (I am careful to check through the previous thread before releasing a new fix version).

[SirMu]

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

Are you sure? Because you can still select undead, but the spell simple isn't triggered. (So you commander goes to the default 'defend' command).

Ah, I did not know that. Well, at the very least, they should be removed as a selection option. But I suppose it's not of immediate concern.

[llamabeast]

Originally Posted by SirMu

Ah, I did not know that. Well, at the very least, they should be removed as a selection option. But I suppose it's not of immediate concern.

Can't be done unfortunately.

[Valerius]

When hammers were removed from CBM there was some discussion as to the impact on thugs of increased forging costs. This is of particular interest to me since thugging is my favorite part of the game. Now that there's been some time to play post-CBM 1.6 games I thought it would be worth talking about this.

My feeling was that removing hammers would really hurt thugs because they need to be equipped affordably, unlike SCs (if I summon an ember lord I'm not going to get cheap on equipping him). Of course if your opponent is using his own thugs to counter yours then his cost has increased as well - but if he's using magic or summons to counter then your position has gotten relatively worse. IMO this is undesirable because thugs were never unbalanced the way you could argue that SCs were/are (and of course because I really like this aspect of the game ).

Another factor that has come into play is that there seems to be an increasing number of powerful secondary effects on weapons. I realize weapon modding is more limited than, say, monster modding and that one of the goals of CBM is to make everything somewhat useful (though personally I don't mind some things being "useless" as long as what is useful is fun) but I'm worried that these changes make life even more difficult for thugs. It's a tough thing to balance in that you can use similar tactics against thugs and SCs but an attack that is damaging to an SC can outright kill a thug. Of course I realize they have different roles and I'm not trying to force a thug into an SC role - I'm talking about using them in their traditional raiding role and the threats they face there.

In my opinion the thugging aspect of the game has taken a hit post 1.6. This isn't good or bad, it's just a change. For me, it's bad because that's my favorite aspect of the game. But many others might not care and for people who don't enjoy that aspect of the game it's a good change. But this is just my impressions. I'm curious as to people's experiences. Are you using thugs as frequently as before? Are you seeing your opponents use them as frequently as before?

[Valerius]

A few comments about my experiences playing TNN under CBM 1.83. I used the traditional E9N6 bless because I find it fun. But I planned on reducing my use of thugs because of the increased forging costs. Note however that TNN received some boosts in this release as well (lower encumbrance, better N battle magic, awe on Ri) so these comments are directed not towards them being nerfed but towards a change in emphasis and feedback on which units I used and which I didn't use.

Generally speaking, I thought Ri having awe balanced out the increased forging costs and I used them for thug duties. Of course it depends on the opponent - if your opposition doesn't care about awe then you're in the same boat as Sidhe Lords. And I think Sidhe Lords suffer most. I didn't recruit one the entire game and I can't think why I would. Bean Sidhe cost less, are better researchers and have better magic paths. I suppose if I wanted to send out a thug without equipment or maybe with just a frost brand I might recruit one. But these used to be a mainstay so the fact that I didn't recruit any really stood out to me.

I lean towards removing the awe on Ri/Tuatha and giving TNN/Eriu a forge bonus to help them with thugging. It could even be on a handful of unique summons in order to limit its use. And it's not unthematic if you look at the descriptive text on Lugh and how he had a variety of skills (including forging) that were already present in TNN (just not in one person).

I also recruited fewer Tuatha Sorceresses than usual since I was recruiting more Ri.

I also still don't find Cu Sidhe worthwhile. I want to use these because I like thematic national summons but they just don't seem worth it. Maybe reduce the cost a bit more?

[llamabeast]

Thanks for the comments Valerius, I will go through them carefully.

CB1.9 includes a comprehensive review of items, with many being gently buffed. I think this will somewhat help thugs, and may partially counter the nerf you describe as a result of the hammer loss.

Do you think awe on the Ri is overpowered? I think I read a suggestion somewhere else that it might be.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

Thanks for the comments Valerius, I will go through them carefully.

Thanks for taking the time to read through it!

Originally Posted by llamabeast

Do you think awe on the Ri is overpowered? I think I read a suggestion somewhere else that it might be.

Hmm, I don't know that I'd go so far as to say it's OP. The EA is a tough neighborhood and in that context I don't think it's off the charts. I can see how some nations could have trouble dealing with it early on and that it would be frustrating but I don't know that it's any more frustrating than being attacked early by Niefel, Mictlan, etc. And I think it's an advantage early and fades as the game goes on and the counters are not fazed by awe. It's also worth noting that (at least with the E9N6 bless I used) it results in a turbo charged expansion. I pulled back because I didn't want to put a "dogpile me" sign on my back but in test games my province count in the first year was as high as any other nation I've played and much higher than I've gotten with TNN previously.

Overall I think the awe is a fair trade for increased forging costs - my concern is the sidelining of Sidhe Lords. So, while it might be for different reasons than those who think it's OP, I also wouldn't be sad to see it go. Where I might differ is that I'd like to see something that keeps thugging a viable option for both Ri and Sidhe Lords (a forge bonus being an easy solution but perhaps there's something else that would work).

I also want to add that as much as I like the thugging aspect of the game having options is very fun and I really do like the changes such as lower encumbrance and better N battlefield magic - things that promote areas besides thugging.

And on a completely different topic, just a reminder about our discussion earlier in the thread regarding the encumbrance on MA Vans.

[LDiCesare]

I found the Ri's lance false fetters much more of an issue than the awe myself. Ris don't get hit even if they are attacked. But the fetters prevent even high morale high attack units from striking them.

[rdonj]

I'm not really sure that sidhe lords should be sidelined though due to them being able to solo PD without any gear, and tuatha sorceresses being somewhat necessary for magic levels. If you're building mostly ri then you'll have a strong force for raiding anyway, but I'm really not sure you actually need to put any gear on your sidhe for just light raiding.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by rdonj

I'm not really sure that sidhe lords should be sidelined though due to them being able to solo PD without any gear, and tuatha sorceresses being somewhat necessary for magic levels. If you're building mostly ri then you'll have a strong force for raiding anyway, but I'm really not sure you actually need to put any gear on your sidhe for just light raiding.

I'd agree that they can solo a few points of PD without gear but I've found that things get iffy with even middling level PD. The problem being that even with an abbreviated script their post-buff fatigue makes them vulnerable (and I'm assuming an E9Nx bless for reinvigoration and some extra protection as well as regeneration). And without a vine shield to keep attackers off them they end up taking a lot of hits. Without a brand they also can't kill things quickly so the battle goes longer and they take more hits. Even if mistform holds, those 1 HP hits add up.

Originally Posted by llamabeast

CB1.9 includes a comprehensive review of items, with many being gently buffed. I think this will somewhat help thugs, and may partially counter the nerf you describe as a result of the hammer loss.

I thought my previous comment about secondary effects on weapons was kind of vague so I thought I'd explain in more detail what worries me about some of the items and perhaps about some of the other intended changes.

I ran some tests on just man's cross under the current release. In one of my previous games playing TNN I had a back-and-forth with TC. One of (many) measures he used against my thugs was equipping cheap mages with black bows of botulf and having them fire away. He ended up feebleminding some thugs with this method and effectively removed them from action. But at least in this case a hit was required for the effect to trigger. With just man's cross the secondary effect is aoe 1 so all that is needed is to hit the opponent's square. And the weapon actually has good precision so the chances of doing that are improved. And the damage is brutal at 15 AN. On average, one hit will kill a glamoured thug. If they've gotten up mistform they can take the first hit, but without mistform they'll be much more likely to die to just PD anyway. Since mistform is so important even 1 AN damage would be tough since it would dispel it - but 15 means that even adding a magic item to boost protection or regeneration to recover from a second hit likely won't matter. Also, this would be great at killing any human level HP elite/sacred troops that are used for raiding. Even raiding units with more HP like the lower end angels would be very much at risk. And this is on an item that only costs 5 gems...

It's the combination of cheap cost, high damage, armor negating damage, good precision, and always taking effect aoe 1, that seems too much to me. If it's an anti-thug/raiding weapon then it seems like it should be less powerful. If it's an anti-SC weapon then it seems like it should be more expensive.

Btw, just for fun I gave one to an NW mage (precision 10) and scripted: eagle eyes, personal quickness, attack one turn, fire. This actually worked very nicely as the mage was able to fire every turn and move forward a bit due to extra action points to continuously get closer to the target, but was still behind the PD as a buffer. The kill rate with this method was 100%.