Patch: WinSPMBT version 10.0b Upgrade patch

[Dion]

With out a doubt one of the best updates yet. Especially like the upgrade to the status information screen. Having the game extended to 2025 is helpfull too, makes the game feel more modern.

[RightDeve]

I am a bit anxious about the new feature regarding hull/turret turn triggering opfires. Don't be offended please, I'm sincerely asking since this is one of the most fundamental mechanics of the game that has been changed, thus the repercussions are going to be far and wide.

1. As someone already asked (on that thread discussing this topic): what about "harvesting" enemy opfires thus clearing the way for other units to advance? This is especially obvious since no Movement Points are expended for turret/hull turning (if I understand the feature correctly). Even more so because all players in the decades of playing SP have been conditioned to turn their units freely to look around the map (sometimes you can spot previously hidden enemy units too). They can't be easily held accountable when someone accuses "you're CHEATING!"

2. If I understand correctly, infantry units too may attract opfires when they're rotated/turned? Isn't this a bit too far? Standard military procedure for a single infantry squad is to establish 360 degree awareness. It's not too obvious to turn one's shoulder/neck/head (compared to turning a tank's hull/turret). Besides, infantry units are composed of individual man, so the unit's facing is very flexible, even multiple directions at once. Sure, there's a "general direction" that an infantry unit must face, but my bottom line is that infantry units are much more fluid & flexible & not too obvious when they're "turning around", compared to tanks and other such vehicles.

3. Why no movement points? As #1 suggests, giving MP penalty for turning/rotating around may discourage players to easily dry out the enemy's opfire. Besides, turning/rotating is indeed moving (even more so with tanks etc, it's quite a movement), so it's only normal that movement points should be expended. If Andy wants it KISS thus no MP penalty, I'd say, why bother with this feature at all? Without this feature everything already works good & fine. Inventing this feature may seem easy coding-wise (as Andy has said on that other thread), but the implication & repercussion isn't so easy since this is a fundamental mechanic of the game.

4. Right clicking an enemy unit now automatically orients both the turret & the hull toward that enemy unit. Right clicking on an empty hex just turns the turret. But what if I want to turn both the turret & the hull, when there's no enemy around? Say, if I want to set up the defence of my tanks before any enemy shows up?

5. Is the AI aware of this new feature also? In some way or the other this may handicap the AI even further, not to mention human exploitation for it.


Now, someone may unload his wrath upon me for being late in the discussion and take on the developer decision directly. But sire, do I have a really great apprehension about this new feature since it's so fundamental to the game mechanics! I am sincerely afraid that this may break my favorite game of all time I am more than happy to be proven wrong regarding my apprehension.

I'm just expressing food for thought here guys, please place good discussion & arguments above emotions. If someone thinks he's too good to act decently on the forum, I'd suggest may we meet face to face as a gentleman, how'd he like that?

Cheers!

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by RightDeve

I am a bit anxious about the new feature regarding hull/turret turn triggering opfires. Don't be offended please, I'm sincerely asking since this is one of the most fundamental mechanics of the game that has been changed, thus the repercussions are going to be far and wide.

1. As someone already asked (on that thread discussing this topic): what about "harvesting" enemy opfires thus clearing the way for other units to advance? This is especially obvious since no Movement Points are expended for turret/hull turning (if I understand the feature correctly). Even more so because all players in the decades of playing SP have been conditioned to turn their units freely to look around the map (sometimes you can spot previously hidden enemy units too). They can't be easily held accountable when someone accuses "you're CHEATING!"

2. If I understand correctly, infantry units too may attract opfires when they're rotated/turned? Isn't this a bit too far? Standard military procedure for a single infantry squad is to establish 360 degree awareness. It's not too obvious to turn one's shoulder/neck/head (compared to turning a tank's hull/turret). Besides, infantry units are composed of individual man, so the unit's facing is very flexible, even multiple directions at once. Sure, there's a "general direction" that an infantry unit must face, but my bottom line is that infantry units are much more fluid & flexible & not too obvious when they're "turning around", compared to tanks and other such vehicles.

3. Why no movement points? As #1 suggests, giving MP penalty for turning/rotating around may discourage players to easily dry out the enemy's opfire. Besides, turning/rotating is indeed moving (even more so with tanks etc, it's quite a movement), so it's only normal that movement points should be expended. If Andy wants it KISS thus no MP penalty, I'd say, why bother with this feature at all? Without this feature everything already works good & fine. Inventing this feature may seem easy coding-wise (as Andy has said on that other thread), but the implication & repercussion isn't so easy since this is a fundamental mechanic of the game.

4. Right clicking an enemy unit now automatically orients both the turret & the hull toward that enemy unit. Right clicking on an empty hex just turns the turret. But what if I want to turn both the turret & the hull, when there's no enemy around? Say, if I want to set up the defence of my tanks before any enemy shows up?

5. Is the AI aware of this new feature also? In some way or the other this may handicap the AI even further, not to mention human exploitation for it.


Now, someone may unload his wrath upon me for being late in the discussion and take on the developer decision directly. But sire, do I have a really great apprehension about this new feature since it's so fundamental to the game mechanics! I am sincerely afraid that this may break my favorite game of all time I am more than happy to be proven wrong regarding my apprehension.

I'm just expressing food for thought here guys, please place good discussion & arguments above emotions. If someone thinks he's too good to act decently on the forum, I'd suggest may we meet face to face as a gentleman, how'd he like that?

Cheers!

This has already been discussed in the "vehicle facing" thread, which is only about number 5 in the forum.

Basically - you wont get any free recce for turning in place any more. Looking in a new direction gives you a new look, and this will now sometimes be penalised by enemy opfire.

It takes a game or so, and then it is second nature to not spin like tops.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by RightDeve

I am a bit anxious about the new feature regarding hull/turret turn triggering opfires. Don't be offended please, I'm sincerely asking since this is one of the most fundamental mechanics of the game that has been changed, thus the repercussions are going to be far and wide.

As Andy said there will be a period of adjustment then it will feel normal

Originally Posted by RightDeve

1. As someone already asked (on that thread discussing this topic): what about "harvesting" enemy opfires thus clearing the way for other units to advance? This is especially obvious since no Movement Points are expended for turret/hull turning (if I understand the feature correctly). Even more so because all players in the decades of playing SP have been conditioned to turn their units freely to look around the map
(sometimes you can spot previously hidden enemy units too). They can't be easily held accountable when someone accuses "you're CHEATING!"

.

Agreed it breaks with "tradition" but checking LOS from your unit without moving anything can be done with the } shortcut or the unit view button on screen. That lets you check your LOS without spinning your tank around and in reality no commander is going to do that in RL, it would be like waving a red flag all we've done is acknowleged that fact and added the CHANCE ( it's not 100% certainty ) that stationary hull/ turret movement is going to attract attention to yourself......movement in battle ALWAYS attracts unwanted attention.

.... and I REALLY don't understand the "you're CHEATING!" comment. Everyone is playing by the same rules

Originally Posted by RightDeve

2. If I understand correctly, infantry units too may attract opfires when they're rotated/turned? Isn't this a bit too far? Standard military procedure for a single infantry squad is to establish 360 degree awareness. It's not too obvious to turn one's shoulder/neck/head (compared to turning a tank's hull/turret). Besides, infantry units are composed of individual man, so the unit's facing is very flexible, even multiple directions at once. Sure, there's a "general direction" that an infantry unit must face, but my bottom line is that infantry units are much more fluid & flexible & not too obvious when they're "turning around", compared to tanks and other such vehicles.
.

***further testing required

Originally Posted by RightDeve

3. Why no movement points? As #1 suggests, giving MP penalty for turning/rotating around may discourage players to easily dry out the enemy's opfire. Besides, turning/rotating is indeed moving (even more so with tanks etc, it's quite a movement), so it's only normal that movement points should be expended. If Andy wants it KISS thus no MP penalty, I'd say, why bother with this feature at all ? Without this feature everything already works good & fine. Inventing this feature may seem easy coding-wise (as Andy has said on that other thread), but the implication & repercussion isn't so easy since this is a fundamental mechanic of the game. .

Because we decided charging MPs was going to far........doesn't it make sense that a tank that is still would attract less attention than one spinning it's turret around or shifting it's hull left and right ?

Originally Posted by RightDeve

4. Right clicking an enemy unit now automatically orients both the turret & the hull toward that enemy unit. Right clicking on an empty hex just turns the turret. But what if I want to turn both the turret & the hull, when there's no enemy around? Say, if I want to set up the defence of my tanks before any enemy shows up?.

Then go ahead and do it........you can't attract opfire when there are no enemy units around to alert .

Originally Posted by RightDeve

5. Is the AI aware of this new feature also? In some way or the other this may handicap the AI even further, not to mention human exploitation for it..

The AI does not have to spin itself around to know you are there if it's already spotted you....have you ever seen the AI spin it's tanks around like a human player would ? No.

YES it will take a game or two for some players to get used to it. Anytime we change anything we risk making some players unhappy while make others happy. Ask yourself WHY you want to spin your tank around to look at things ( mainly because it's easy and what people have been doing for years ) but we already have ways to look around the map and see what you need to see without spinning the tank around and the game acting like all that movement is not happening....But, in the end if the change ends up universally unloved we can always change the code back but this really needs to be played with for a few games before jumping to any conclusions about it.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by RightDeve

I am a bit anxious about the new feature regarding hull/turret turn triggering opfires. !

Thank you for presenting your concerns. it caused me to look deeper into this and revealed issues that surprised me and that specific change is now under review.

The patch is on now on hold until further notice

Don

[geoff]

a) One of the strengths of this program has always been your (the developers) acceptance of genuine, well thought out and researched feedback. Hence I applaud your decision to look into this and delay the patch.

b) Oh No!!!

[Dion]

I think it's basically a good rule, because if tanks can change their facing, they should receive opp. fire with the same probility as if they were moving to a new hex. The way it is now, a tank can face forward even when their withdrawing (not just the destination hex, but each hex between) to a better position on the battlefield.

[DRG]

It's not the tanks that are the issue it's how the change interacts with infantry combat

Don

[Suhiir]

I can see and totally agree infantry types units shouldn't be subject to this.

[jivemi]

As a proponent of KISS I'd prefer to scrap the proposed change if there's any risk of unintended consequences to gameplay. If it ain't broke don't fix it and all that. Just my two centavos' worth. Cheers and good luck whatever the decision is.