Intel Comms Mimic Question

[Loser]

I'm not going to argue the WP issue, and I am glad to have your take on that.

I would like to say that Talisman WPs are still scary. They make that WP range advantage matter a little bit more. But then again, Talisman is scary most all the time.

But about the cargo space, those very worlds that need the additional cargo space from a Cargo Facility are the ones on which every Facility slot is precious. Unless you've got vacuum breathers, those tiny moons are better off with Ship and Fleet Training or Shipyard Facilities, and thus limited to only twenty or so Troops and four or so anger points per turn.

But sure, a wise player ought to be able to keep his breathers happy.

[PvK]

I'll throw out two arguments on the WP issue.

1) Even in late-game, WP's can make the difference between a planet which can defend itself from a few ships, to one that will be completely wiped out by even a single minescule unite. This forces the enemy to use a fleet to destroy a planet, instead of being able to wipe out an entire system in one turn with a few units.

2) Late-game WP's can destroy ships even in a large fleet, which can be helpful, but more importantly, if they cripple the mobility of an enemy ship, they can stop or slow an entire fleet, saving other worlds from destruction and buying time for the defender's fleet to arrive, and/or making it possible for the fleet to intercept the attacking fleet.

PvK

[spoon]

Originally posted by PvK:
1) Even in late-game, WP's can make the difference between a planet which can defend itself from a few ships, to one that will be completely wiped out by even a single minescule unite. This forces the enemy to use a fleet to destroy a planet, instead of being able to wipe out an entire system in one turn with a few units.

Mines do this, and they do it better.

2) Late-game WP's can destroy ships even in a large fleet, which can be helpful, but more importantly, if they cripple the mobility of an enemy ship, they can stop or slow an entire fleet, saving other worlds from destruction and buying time for the defender's fleet to arrive, and/or making it possible for the fleet to intercept the attacking fleet.

Good advice. I generally don't use WPs for anything except this and as Point Defense platforms. And if stopping ships is what you're after, don't bother with weapons that might accidentally destroy ships. Use Shield Depleters and Engine Destroyers.

[Loser]

Originally posted by spoon:

quote:

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Originally posted by PvK:
1) Even in late-game, WP's can make the difference between a planet which can defend itself from a few ships, to one that will be completely wiped out by even a single minescule unite. This forces the enemy to use a fleet to destroy a planet, instead of being able to wipe out an entire system in one turn with a few units.

Mines do this, and they do it better.

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A single Sweeper Carrier with twenty Mine Sweeper Vs and planet-attack Fighters will deal harshly with a mined world that lacks WPs.

[edit: these would be ships that separate off from the main fleet, not ships sent off on their own. Just to be clear.]

[ October 14, 2003, 22:27: Message edited by: Loser ]

[Fyron]

Originally posted by PvK:
I'll throw out two arguments on the WP issue.
2) Late-game WP's can destroy ships even in a large fleet, which can be helpful, but more importantly, if they cripple the mobility of an enemy ship, they can stop or slow an entire fleet, saving other worlds from destruction and buying time for the defender's fleet to arrive, and/or making it possible for the fleet to intercept the attacking fleet.

Never seen that happen yet. Late game, my smaller fleets (read: 40+ ships, which is a small late game fleet, except on small maps) always steamroll over huge breathables filled with WPs. Of course, that is a rare occurence, as most people don't build WPs. I guess it could happen if you let too much peace occur before going to war, with huge build-up periods.

The problem with WPs is that they eat up a tremendous amount of time and resources to defend all your planets; resources and time that would be better spent on attack ships to take the fight to the enemy. Just a couple of them are meaningless; you must have big planets filled with them to even try to make a dent in the enemy. This is why I essentially quartered the costs of WPs in Adamant Mod. Might have gone too far in the opposite direction, but testing will show that (or the opposite).

[ October 14, 2003, 21:53: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Loser]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Anyone that does not sufficiently garrison their planets with police troops is just asking for trouble. 100 is sufficient in most circumstances, 120 in the most dire.

Yes, but you can't always afford that in non-FQM games. Space is needed for Weapon Platforms and Mine and Satellite staging as well.

Or do you, perhaps, regard Weapon Platforms as usless? At some point late in a game agaisnt humans their use becomes highly questionable, I am finding.

[PvK]

On point one, see what Loser said. In late-game, it's easy to sweep mines. A vastly cheaper 1-2 ships can glass a planet defended only by mines... unless it has a few Large WP's.

On point two, yes a 40+ ship fleet usually won't be stopped by a planet filled with WP's. But only a few WP's can stop a small group, or as spoon said, slow down a fleet of any size, if it does mobility damage. A single large WP with shield depleters and an ionic disperser has a good chance of stopping an entire fleet in its tracks, and allowing a defense fleet to catch it.

PvK

[Fyron]

Problem is, fast ships can normally just skip right past that range advantage WPs have to do tons of damage before the WPs get a chance to fight back, often destroying most, if not all, of the WPs before they can shoot.

40 ships is a small group as far as I am concerned. I think we are talking a totally different order of scale here.

In my experience, WPs have never been anything more than an annoyance in the mid and late games. Only in the early game have they been a real threat.

[ October 16, 2003, 01:58: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[narf poit chez BOOM]

WPs have to do tons of damage before the WPs get a chance to fight back

read that again, Fyron.

[PvK]

No, I've seen attacks by large fleets of max-speed ships with tons of shields. Massive Mount WP weapons usually get enough of a range advantage that not enough ships can wipe out many platforms before at least some shots get off. Again, the goal is not to be able to defeat a huge armada with WPs. The idea is to force the enemy to use relatively large fleets, and then to delay and slow the attacking armada so it can be intercepted with less damage done to planets.

PvK