Micromanaging armies and commanders

[Elmo]

Thanks johan. Sorry if my earlier post made it sound like there was a bug. The docs for the demo are pretty sparse so it looked like a problem since I have yet to see my flankers go after the rear most unit(s).

[Elmo]

Thanks Zen. I also need to learn how to use the Hold command. Right now I end up getting my forward troops hit with too many arrows/javelins from the guys in the second rank.

PS - What happens if both sides have multiple Hold orders? Will one side or both attack after those set orders expire?

[ November 30, 2003, 23:25: Message edited by: Elmo ]

Units (not commanders) Only have a Hold and Attack command and then a type you want them ato attack after they hold (Closest, rearmost, etc.).

Both will perform their orders and hold. Something you may be trying that isn't working for you is using Hold and Attack with a unit with a Javalin, because an Attack comand with someone with a javalin means they will not use it.

Friendly fire is a part of Dom2 Unfortunately a large part expecially if you arn't spacing and setting your units correctly. Try using default commands and not spacing your troops very far apart to get better results with Javalins. More often than not they will get 1 or 2 volley's of Javalins before they are able to engage, unless they are going up against other Javalin units with the same orders, or Archers, which will mow them down unless you are using the decent Pithium ranks.

[HJ]

Originally posted by Zen:
Friendly fire is a part of Dom2 Unfortunately a large part expecially if you arn't spacing and setting your units correctly.

The more I play, the more I find this to be a really big problem. Right now, I am starting to become too terrified to use any missile troops in my armies, because of the butchering of the pursuers they might do when the fight is nearing an end. I equiped one of my commanders with Bow of War, and right now I think he killed more of my fliers and demons than he killed enemy troops by far.

Something like "Fire and attack" and "Fire and hold" orders would go a long way to improve the usability of missile troops and combo troops (such as Tien Chi cavalry and legionaires) in the game. "Fire and attack" would be great for strong troops who are good at both roles, or good at melee and just happen to have a missile weapon as well. "Fire and hold" would be great for everybody else, since you don't really want them firing in the crowd once the lines crash anyway, unless you're using wards (which are not that easy to come by for just any army). You would get the most out of your missiles, as they tend to count when the field is open to soften up opposition, and reduce friendly fire significantly. All the components for the orders are already there, so I guess it wouldn't be too hard to code either.

As it is now, friendly fire, along with the AI not building any forts and hence not fielding any national troops, are two of my biggest gripes, to a point that they hamper my enjoyment of the game. I am seriously considering composing missile-only and missile-free armies, as this is the only way I can make sure nobody gets killed who wasn't intended to be. This also renders spells like Flaming arrows useless, since I know who will be on the receiving end of them. In short, it's limiting diversity of the game options for me, and I'm beginning to think that waiting for a patch to continue playing might be a good idea - something I don't like.

[ December 01, 2003, 10:34: Message edited by: HJ ]

[Elmo]

HJ

While reading your post I kept thinking of Braveheart where Longshanks fires on his own men as well as the Scots.

Seriously though, can you set your front line troops to Hold while the guys behind use up their ammo or do indirect fire troops have unlimited ammo? I've only played the demo so far and don't know the answer.

Regarding forts, I could have sworn I saw the AI build them in my Last demo game.

Elmo

[ December 01, 2003, 10:19: Message edited by: Elmo ]

[HJ]

Originally posted by Elmo:
HJ

While reading your post I kept thinking of Braveheart where Longshanks fires on his own men as well as the Scots.

Seriously though, can you set your front line troops to Hold while the guys behind use up their ammo or do indirect fire troops have unlimited ammo? I've only played the demo so far and don't know the answer.

Regarding forts, I could have sworn I saw the AI build them in my Last demo game.

Elmo

They will hold for only a couple of turns, while the ammo will Last for much longer with virtually anything other than javelins. The most serious problems arise when your troops are chasing the routers - missile units fire regardless, and since most of the troops in the area are yours, and they are far away so projectiles fly all over the place..... it's not pretty.

In any case, these are my gripes. Some people have others, like inability to adjust battle speed, which don't bother me personally, but these I mentioned do indeed.

[Elmo]

Yeah I've lost troops to my own arrows when they are pursuing a routed enemy. Just chalked it up to fog of war but I'm going to experiment with the full game when I get it to see if micromanaging can reduce those losses. Just thinking out loud here but can you put the archers out front so they fire and then retire back through your lines?

I also have not had a problem with replay speed but most of my battles have been realtively small. I just hit "Q" once the outcome is obvious and then go read the final re**** to get the head count. Maybe I miss something doing that though?

[HJ]

Originally posted by Elmo:
Yeah I've lost troops to my own arrows when they are pursuing a routed enemy. Just chalked it up to fog of war but I'm going to experiment with the full game when I get it to see if micromanaging can reduce those losses. Just thinking out loud here but can you put the archers out front so they fire and then retire back through your lines?

I also have not had a problem with replay speed but most of my battles have been realtively small. I just hit "Q" once the outcome is obvious and then go read the final re**** to get the head count. Maybe I miss something doing that though?

At the moment, you can order them to "Fire and flee". This will result in them fleeing from the battle entirely, meaning they'll end up being scattered in the neighbouring provinces as they would if you lost. This is supposed to be redone in the patch, so that they stay with the army after they've fled the field. But I still think that something of a sort I suggested would be much better, as you could still use them in battle after they've stopped firing as a Last-ditch defense if they are holding ground. And if your cavalry archers fled, you wouldn't be able to use their melee capability at all, and this is where "Fire and attack" comes in. But if you're thinking TW skirmish ability, no, nothing of a sort is possible.

As for replay speed & watching battles - I guess it's a personal thing. Some people play for the results, or have viewed the battles so many times so that they have lost interest. I tend to enjoy watching them, as they are the main point of the game, IMHO. Not so much because of the improving my effectivness of play, but because I like it, and I watch even the most insignificant battle just because I enjoy them. Being able to speed up battles wouldn't hurt, but it's definitely not a showstopper for me.

[Elmo]

Thanks for the help everyone.

Would you say the tactical battles use a rock-scissors-paper approach? IOW each type of unit generally can kill another type but in turn gets killed by something else. For example: swordsmen generally kill archers, archers kill cavalry, cavalry kill swordsmen.

What I'm fishing for is whether there is one unit that is powerful across the board or whether each has strengths and weaknesses. In AoW:SM flyers have been generally regarded as overpowered compared to most other units. Just wondering about D2, although I know the game hasn't been out that long.

HJ - Yes the MTW tactical engine in D2 would be awesome although I'm sure it won't be happening. Maybe in D3...

[HJ]

Originally posted by Elmo:
Thanks for the help everyone.

Would you say the tactical battles use a rock-scissors-paper approach? IOW each type of unit generally can kill another type but in turn gets killed by something else. For example: swordsmen generally kill archers, archers kill cavalry, cavalry kill swordsmen.

What I'm fishing for is whether there is one unit that is powerful across the board or whether each has strengths and weaknesses. In AoW:SM flyers have been generally regarded as overpowered compared to most other units. Just wondering about D2, although I know the game hasn't been out that long.

HJ - Yes the MTW tactical engine in D2 would be awesome although I'm sure it won't be happening. Maybe in D3...

I would say that the situation is much more complicated than that. There isn't a clear-cut rock paper scissors approach, and it'd a good thing, IMHO. There are just too many options for it to be possible. Also, there are counters to everything, and many of them too, but they are also less than clear-cut. The game doesn't revolve around troop types as much as you would expect when you look at other games. Generally, the heavier the troop, the more effective it is. But then, heavy troops are expensive, and the relative amount of light troops that you can buy for the same cost may overwhelm the heavy troop. And the heavies are slow on the main map, making them vulnerable to manouver war. And then there are super-potent troops, such as supercombatant pretenders or big summons, but there are also counters to them. And there is magic, which can be used in myriad of ways. One powerful mage may defeat an entire army with luck, but one stray arrow might kill him, for example. And so on, the options for gameplay are vast.
In short, you cannot look at just the troop types, as in MTW, AoE, or AoM, because so many things act in synchrony, and things like magic and items add further layers of complexity to the gameplay. Some things might be stronger than the others, but eventually there isn't anything that cannot be countered, while at the same time there are many ways to approach on how to do it.