"New" Pythium and the javelin throwers in general

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
I have to admit, I don't understand either. The balance problems are well known and not seriously disputed by anyone, and Dom I/II are often played multiplayer where any balance problem has a serious effect on gameplay.

I don't think it's so clear cut. Nobody seems to dispute that Pythium and Acroscephale are among the best nations, but I for one don't think they're so much better than the middle of the pack factions. The bottom tier factions on the other hand really are pretty bad.

IMHO multiplayer games are much less susceptible to inbalance, as players tend to adjust their diplomacy to gang up on perceived leaders. For example, I've done just fine against competent players using Pangaea in Dom 1, even despite a weak starting location.

[Endoperez]

About the more demons -items... I think that new spells should be added for lower-level demons, always a level higher than the main ritual, which give one/two more demons per casting and cost more. I'm not sure but they might need more magic requirements too. An example for this:

Get Some Devils
fire-2, blood-3
Blood 4
Summons 2 devils.

Another way would be higher level mages summoning more devils. That is, the rituals we have now would summon 1+ devil(s), and with a mage with blood-4 you would get three devils. We would already ahve the items needed...
Because of the quite abusing pretenders one could make (research level 3 to get the effect of level 9 spell!) maybe these should be national summons. The Devil-variety for Abysia, Frost Fiend -one for Jotunheim, Storm Demons for Vanheim (even if the Jarls still start with blood-1). And maybe Dark vines- summoning for Pangaea? I'm not usre about this, though... The nations would have to START with those spells to get these spells.

[Pocus]

Chris Byler wrote:
The Blood 2 summons, especially, need to give more demons, even if they also cost more slaves. I wouldn't mind seeing all low level blood summons double or triple in both cost and number of demons summoned (or, since they really need a boost, triple the number summoned for double the cost).

in dom2 shows a reverse tendency. The bind serpent fiend now cost only 5 slaves, but summon only one demon. As the spell was mostly of interest in dom1 because it allowed you to get 3 units per cast, one can say that in dom2 it has been somehow crippled.

If serpent fiend are deemed more powerful now (death poison), then the cost should have been raised from 8 to 12 eg, but the 3 units per cast should have remained, as this was a distinct feature of this spell compared to say fiend of darkness.

another one bite the dust...

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:

quote:

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Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
inability to get a high enough dominion to produce serious numbers makes the Sun Warriors not that significant in the long term. Its the Ulm IF Templers problem only worse as Sun Warriors die easier and as you are so dependent on them early its really hard to build up numbers.

I don't see what you mean by "inability to get a high enough dominion to produce serious numbers". Isn't holy troop production determined by your god's dominion strength (adjusted by number of temples)

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Thats right. The problem is if you are building say 5-7 sun warriors a turn and losing 1-3 the build up is prettty slow. As conflict grows you will lose more but your ability to build them will only ever rise a few beyond its starting level. Relatively easy to kill sacred troops that you can only build at your capitol are difficult to build up large numbers of.

maybe add items that work like the ivy crown but for all non-commander demon summons
. . . How about these:

Infernal Vessel
Level 2 blood, 2 construction misc item
This bowl is specially designed to attract the attention of infernal beings. When the bearer fills the vessel with sacrificial blood to summon demons he will attract more demons than usual (+1 demon summoned per attempt).

Sceptre of Hell
Level 2 blood, 2 fire, 6 construction one-handed weapon
This sceptre grants the wielder greater authority over the hosts of Hell. The wielder will be able to command more demons than usual (+25 demonic leadership), and when he summons demons from the netherworld, more demons will answer his call (+2 demons summoned per attempt). The sceptre allows the wielder to strike his foes with the fires of Hell.
Spell: Hellfire
Attack 1, Damage 10 (Armor piercing, strength not added), Defense 3, Length 2, magic

Of course they wouldn't affect commander summons.

I like your idea alot Chris. Adding in items that improve spells is very in keeping with Illwinters approach and adds to the flavour. Requiring you to get construction for items makes it harder to abuse multiple devil summoning by delaying it while simply increasing the amount of devils could be too powerful if you start with the spell.

cheers

Keir

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Jasper:

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Byler:
Dom I/II are often played multiplayer where any balance problem has a serious effect on gameplay.

IMHO multiplayer games are much less susceptible to inbalance, as players tend to adjust their diplomacy to gang up on perceived leaders.

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I think it depends very much on game environment. In an alliances allowed game of mixed experiance/skill you can win with pretty much any race played well as the enormous imbalences in game setup and diplomacy provide game tipping opportunities. No diplomacy games with everyone of a similar fairly high level of experiance/skill on the other hand is much less forgiving of weakness.

In full diplomacy games I find people are as keen to be friends with the races doing well as they are at trying to bring them down. Many players are quite happy to ally in such a way that they have little chance for victory but could well come 2nd or 3rd on the winning team. If on the other hand they take on the monster they could be crushed merclessly. Diplomacy is what decides it and diplomacising from a position of power is very effective if done well.

Cheers

Keir

[olaf73]

I have only played three nations, so keep that in mind.

Why do people think Pythium is overpowered? The javelins look good on paper, but mine miss a ton or do no damage. Plus they usually only get 2 throws off, if that, before someone locks them up in melee. And, as straight melee troops they seem crappy compared to Ulm and Jotunheim, the other nations I have played with.

Along the same lines, what is the general concensus for which nations are top of the heap, middle of the pack, and bottom of the barrel in terms of power?

Thanks
olaf

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by olaf73:
I have only played three nations, so keep that in mind.

Why do people think Pythium is overpowered? The javelins look good on paper, but mine miss a ton or do no damage. Plus they usually only get 2 throws off, if that, before someone locks them up in melee. And, as straight melee troops they seem crappy compared to Ulm and Jotunheim, the other nations I have played with.

Along the same lines, what is the general concensus for which nations are top of the heap, middle of the pack, and bottom of the barrel in terms of power?

Thanks
olaf

What makes Pythium strong isn't its army - which is only average. It's the mages. Communion, communion and more communion makes every mage fight at 2-3 levels above his actual power - and they're among the most powerful in the game to start with.

It may be that part of their reputation is still based on Dom I where air magic and combat summons (and especially Air Elementals) were too powerful compared to other things you could do with magic. Pythium was very well set up to take advantage of mass Air Elemental summoning. Now that this costs gems it is something to be used sparingly (although still very effective), so Pythium has to put some actual troops in the field now and risk having them get within reach of an enemy's weapons.

But they still have the cheapest researcher in the game (80 gold sacred), the cheapest communion slave in the game, one of the most powerful priests and mages in the game, strong Astral magic (you don't Magic Duel them, they Magic Duel you), good regular troops and no particular weaknesses. (Their cavalry is cold blooded but they don't rely on it - and it's also poisonous and the serpents keep fighting after their rider is killed.) Oh, and Hydras, too.

[Teraswaerto]

Don't forget the gladiators. Not something used a lot, but they can make a big difference in some situations. Also, the Principe are great.

Yes, Ulmish troops have more armor, and giants are tough. But Ulmish troops are slow, have weak morale, and cost loads of resources --> slow to produce. Giants are expensive both in resources and gold, and have supply problems & increased vulnerability to spells like curse, blindness, etc.

Principe have strat move 2, good armor + tower shield, javelins, no moral problems since you got standards and good priests. Very cost effective, in both resources and gold. What's not to like?

[Coffeedragon]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:

But they still have the cheapest researcher in the game (80 gold sacred),...

Man Bards 75 Gold, Marignon Initiates 60 Gold,...

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Coffeedragon:

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Byler:

But they still have the cheapest researcher in the game (80 gold sacred),...

Man Bards 75 Gold, Marignon Initiates 60 Gold,...

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80 gold sacred beats both of those. They are actually 90 gold sacred, but have priest powers, so that's OK.

Man's daughters of Avalon are level-2 Nature and 80 gold sacred, the best national researchers I can think of. Not to mention that they get Owl Quills as well.

[ January 30, 2004, 19:59: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]