cavalry charges against pikes units

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Jasper:
This "everyone should use only pikes" approach would give ridiculous results. Pythium legionaires attacking a unit of pike would get -12 to attack!

On the first contact, yes. I've no real problem with that idea, although the malus might be capped. That would perfectly reflect battles like Cynocephale. The Roman army won, but in the initial shock they were completely unable to use their swords and were pushed back for a while. And the legionaries still have their pila anyway.

BTW, I know at least a couple tabletop figs rules that use exactly the same system - huge attack reduction vs pikes on the first contact. So there's nothing new in my proposal.

Pikes most certainly were melee weapons, and a "barrier" only in the sense that units that couldn't fight them didn't come close to them.

Pikes were melee weapons, except unlike other weapons noone would use them outside deep and close formations.

[Zurai]

A pike is NOT a melee weapon. A pike *formation* is a melee formation, but individually a pike is about the weakest weapon that exists. The advantage of a pike square is that it's impossible to reach the first line of soldiers without THREE or more lines of soldiers being in range of you. When you only have one line, a pike is simple to beat - they're incredibly unwieldy and have no way to handle anything closer than 8 feet or so in front of you.

Pikes have value *only* in a formation, and only in a deep formation at that. A single pikeman has absolutely no strength to repel a cavalry charge, even with just one horseman bearing down on him.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Zurai:
A single pikeman has absolutely no strength to repel a cavalry charge, even with just one horseman bearing down on him.

I wouldn't quite say THAT. A single horseman colliding with a single pointy stick is in for a world of hurt. It'll be that much harder for a single pikeman to connect, but if he does, it's gonna hurt just as much.

Of course, you can model this by having all pikes in a square be able to make a repel attempt against anything that attacks the square...and combine that with my "extra damage for repelling a charger" bonus. A charging cavalryman will thus be looking at 3 sharp pointy stick attacks at once....with extra damage because he charged across the field into them.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Zurai:
they're incredibly unwieldy and have no way to handle anything closer than 8 feet or so in front of you.

Pikemen were routinely issued small axes (or shortswords) as secondary weapons.

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by Pocus:
I like it too. And I like that you see too that something could be done to enhance this aspect of the tac engine.

There is much that could be enhanced in the tac engine. I could probably write an essay on the matter.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
There is much that could be enhanced in the tac engine. I could probably write an essay on the matter.

We'd rather you write code.

[Jasper]

I'd give spears/pikes a significant attack/defense bonus against cavalry, rather like morningstars get attacking units with against shields. I'd give a similar bonus for light troops vs. trampling.

There's not much point in doing more, since the tactical engine doesn't take into account flanking.

[Zurai]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I wouldn't quite say THAT. A single horseman colliding with a single pointy stick is in for a world of hurt. It'll be that much harder for a single pikeman to connect, but if he does, it's gonna hurt just as much.

The reason pikes are effective against horses is that horses aren't dumb. They won't charge into a field of sharp pointy things that they can't jump over and can't avoid. They won't knowingly commit suicide. A single pikeman doesn't provide that benefit - there's plenty of room for the horse to manuever.

[Zurai]

Originally posted by Arryn:
Pikemen were routinely issued small axes (or shortswords) as secondary weapons.

Which doesn't negate anything I said at all; indeed, it reinforces it. Pikemen wouldn't be issued alternate arms if the pikes were a viable melee weapon in its own right.

[Aikamun]

Pete Rose is my Pikeman trainer. His famous words, "Choke up on the bat, son, for more maneuverability." I can see them doing so if their formation has broken up or when fatigued.

Aikamun

[ February 17, 2004, 04:46: Message edited by: Aikamun ]