success with Mictlan in MP?

[PvK]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
Hmn.

Not purchasing troops as a central element to success in MP -- I suppose this makes total sense, and explains also my complete failures (even in SP) --- it just feels so.... wrong. Has there been any talk of somehow increasing the cost of blood magic summoners while somehow strengthening Mictlan's troops? (This is not really a "balance" question, just one of flavor and feel: I think all units in the game should have a use and be used, at least sometimes, and if some things are never used, that is bad -- but a whole nation's troops almost never being used? Argh...)

You're giving too much weight to the comments of people who speak as though "not the best" is the definition of the word "useless". Not buying any troops is a possible approach I suppose, but definitely not the only one, nor one I would recommend. Mictlan troops are not all that bad, especially if you buy and use them appropriately. They can certainly be used to take out weaker independents, and a flying demon army is stronger when combined with flying Eagle Warriors, for instance.

PvK

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by PvK:
They can certainly be used to take out weaker independents, and a flying demon army is stronger when combined with flying Eagle Warriors, for instance.

Well, actually, a flying devil army isn't stronger when combined with flying Eagle Warriors, because Eagle Warriors are not capable of strategic flight, and thus your army's mobility is hamstrung. Furthermore, in combat, the Eagle Warriors are likely to catch fire from proximity to the devils' heat auras.

As a result, the Eagle Warriors end up becoming an expensive and bothersome fiasco. Did I mention that they are capitol only, and not as mobile as the devils or fiends? That same cash could have been spent on another priest to hunt for more blood slaves or summon more devils.

While it's certainly possible to enhance the effectiveness of the Mictlan sacreds through the use of a strong bless, this is expensive in points, and has a short obsolescence date, as Mictlan troops quickly fade from effectiveness when blood summons become available in force, and cannot be easily adapted to other roles as better units, such as Vanir, can. Thus a blessing choice for Mictlan is a very short-term decision which you may come to regret.

Basically, I feel you are better off sticking with blood summons to back your army, and using only slaves to patrol provinces you are hunting in so you have to give up less in taxes, so you can buy more priests and hunt more blood.

[PvK]

Well as I think I said, yes you can try to go 100% blood summons.

I don't think I would, though. Mictlan Priests are 80 gold and sacred, so very cheap. In my Mictlan game, I have almost never had to choose between hiring a priest, and hiring any troops. The troops are cheap.

Yes one has to be careful about combining devils with units that aren't immune to heat. I lost my unique mummy death mage that way (heh). However if I started them out in different areas so they aren't dying during a Hold stage, I didn't see many Eagle Warriors catching fire during battles combined with devils - maybe one or two per battle, and the fire generally went out.

At any rate, Eagle Warriors can make a big difference in the early stages, when you don't have devils but Fiends of Darkness, who have no heat aura anyway, and so it's better both for the Fiends and the Eagles to combine them in a different army besides a devil one. Having enough numbers is important to the success of fliers, and so Eagle Warriors can make the difference for a Fiend force that is just building up enough strength to rout an enemy without getting beat up.

PvK

[sergex]

Hey, that's a good idea to use the slave soldiers as cheap patrollers Do the conscripts cost gold upkeep? That would negate the slightly higher tax rates you would get if they do.

The way I play Mictlan is this simple equation:

Gold = Blood Hunters = Blood Slaves = Demon Horde

By adding in the troops you take away from the demon horde result. The only things I use gold for are Mercs, Priests of all flavor, Sages or other Indie Researchers, Scouts, Watch Towers, Temples, Laboratories. Possibly Province Defense if I'm being harrassed by weak raiding forces.

The high mobility of the flying Demon army lead by a Arch Devil is that you can defend your watchtowers easily with it due to their strategic movement. Flying 3 provinces a turn in any direction allows you to hit an army as soon as it enters one of your provinces. You may lose a Watchtower here and there but it's not like they are hard to conquer back.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by sergex:
Hey, that's a good idea to use the slave soldiers as cheap patrollers Do the conscripts cost gold upkeep? That would negate the slightly higher tax rates you would get if they do.

They do, but far, far less than regular mans: A slave has the gold upkeep of a $1 unit. Compared to patrolling with normal units, this cost is negligible and pays for itself by the fact that a single loaded Tribal King, equivalent in upkeep to a scout and 5 mans, can more or less entirely suppress the unrest caused by 2 priests hunting with SDRs.

Mictlan Priests are 80 gold and sacred, so very cheap. In my Mictlan game, I have almost never had to choose between hiring a priest, and hiring any troops. The troops are cheap.

Then you are not building enough towers. Towers enable to you hire more priests, hunt more blood, protect your blood hunters from raiding, and protect your provinces from raiding. You should put one in every major province as soon as possible. This costs money, money you won't have if you waste them on worthless troops that die nearly instantly.

A force of 5 FoDs can do more damage than an entire commander's worth of your regular troops, and costs no upkeep.

[SelfishGene]

Fire and Death are both valid blessings for making Mictlan's normal troops relatively effective. Mass sacreds work well with Fear, and of course +9 damage is more useful when you have 50 units than when you have 10.

Jaguar Warriors are one of the few sacred units in the game that can be mass produced. If they're protected from Death by Archer they're reasonably effective as sacred troops go.

Eagle Warriors + Body Ethereal + Fear make for a nicely mobile flanking force that can break indies with moral checks. Eagles tend to get repelled alot, and a Nature Blessing wouldn't be bad either for the Bezerk. But all the Mictlan sacreds are cannon fodder in the end.

Feathered Warriors are essential, probably the most essential Mictlan standard unit, since they help make slave armies have at least a measure of durability against breaking. They still don't seem to work that well, because of, i believe, the way they radiate an 'aura', but how still the slave armies tend to outrun them.

Mass Protection is an awesome if not essential Mictlan spell. Mictlan is rather item dependent as well as Summons/Blood dependent, and need a decent gem income on top of their blood.

[Mardagg]

just a hint:

NEVER use Spells like Protection/Mass Protection on units with Heat Aura(like Devils ).
These units lose there 100% Fire Resistance and afterwards they hurt themselves with their own Aura

I had this Problem with Abysia some days ago,because I mistakenly sent a Warlock with 1 Nature together with my army,who then happily casted Protection on all my Abysian Infantries and Spell Casters...this was very,very ugly and I lost some important commanders because of this

[PvK]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
...
A force of 5 FoDs can do more damage than an entire commander's worth of your regular troops, and costs no upkeep.

Well, they "can", but it can also happen that you lose some FoD's if they go in alone.

If you send 10-15 blessed Eagle Warriors with the 5 FoD's, then you are much less likely to lose any FoD's, and much more likely to win the battle with only a few Eagle Warriors lost.

Moreover, if you include some slave decoy fodder and a group of regular troops with slings and/or javelins who are just starting to engage the enemy main body when you fliers hit, you have an almost guaranteed chance of defeating a computer-led force in detail, with minimal losses. In my Mictlan SP game, my Mictlan human troops have been quite long-lived, as have my demons, because the humans almost never have to fight a pitched battle to the end, although they do participate and help.

Blessed Sun Warriors can fight pretty well, too, especially after they have experience.

PvK

[djtool]

mictlan is one of my favorite nations, but of course i'm not the great dom2 scientist and struggle with them as well

I'm wondering if y'all start right out the gates trying to produce fiends/spine devils quick as possible? it seems that would paralyze your production with the blood-hunting, or killing it off with heavy patrolling. Maybe growth 3 counteracts that???

...or do you make a slow transition from standard units to blood summons?

[PvK]

I do a mixed/balanced approach, rather than going all out for anything. The troops are good enough to handle weak independents. I use FoD's early, but not "as soon as possible".

The pre-research though is wasted if you don't use it before you research the spell anyway.

There isn't really much conflict between blood hunting and FoD production, though, at least in the sense that basic Mictlan Priests can't summon FoD without a power boost, and they're the most efficient ones to do blood hunting anyway.

The question about how much hunting and patrolling to do is a seperate issue and has a little to do with your general style/approach, and a little to do with what provinces are available and what the situation is like.

I'm not saying it's the best approach, but what I did in my SP game was, since provinces were mostly pretty sparsely populated, I would have one Mictlan Priest with a dousing rod in many provinces, and I just turned the tax down to 80% when and if the unrest occasionally started to rise. No patrollers.

The other approach, of course, may likely be more effective, and that is to go all out for blood slaves. Crank out priests with dousing rods and patrol with slaves to maximize blood income. Eventually the blood power will make the lack of population not so meaningful, hopefully.

PvK

[ May 17, 2004, 01:19: Message edited by: PvK ]