New Version of Ashikaga Here

I think we need more Earth/Water/Astral Nations!

I also wouldn't mind a Earth/Blood nation.

And a few more Fire/Death spells.

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by st.patrik:
I know this is off-topic, but ARE YOU KIDDING? The only more prevalent magic than blood is death. Already you have the nations Abysia (several themes), Mictlan, Jotunheim, Pangaea (base theme), Black Forest Ulm, and Vanheim with blood capability. I think there are *plenty* of blood nations -

Certainly there are a lot of Blood nations, but I don't like almost any of them. Mictlan is a MM nightmare that even in small games gets too involved for me. Also, they're SLOW. Of the rest of the themes, you have Abysia, who in base has no good blood-searcher and in BoH has rather underwhelming nat'l troops. Jotunheim suffers from the base Abysia issue, and Vanheim has actually very little blood capability. BF Ulm suffers from an enforced Death scale.

Something else I've noticed is that Blood tends to de-randomize your picks in your mages, the Jotun Gygja being the only exception. As I've said in the Ashikaga thread, I'd love to have a 'Blood Mystic'.

if there's any path that needs another nation it's earth, which only has Vanheim and Ulm (and a little in Machaka & Pangaea)

There's also Golden Era Arco for certain, and base Arco can definitely get their hands on Earth mages. IIRC, Tien Chi might get some Earth gems as well.

What I find lacking is not so much this path or that path, but the combinations, ESPECIALLY on Pretenders.

Not saying this to try to be an *** - I just honestly don't understand how anyone can think we need another blood nation.

I wasn't offended. My concern with the 'blood nations' currently out there is that they are too focused on 'one aspect' of Blood Magic. Abysia can get Devils and Archdevils, but not Frost Fiends or anything but the Fire Devils. Jotunheim is the reverse. Mictlan is the exception here, but the cost involved is far too high in a playstyle way.

But then, I'm a big proponent of high random picks on mages.

Scott

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Zen:
I think we need more Earth/Water/Astral Nations!

*chuckles* The Lunar part of the Exalted mod will be Earth/Air/Astral... close enough for you?

I also wouldn't mind a Earth/Blood nation.

Sort of odd that BF Ulm totally loses its Earth... best people for it now I guess are IF Ulm and Vanheim...

And a few more Fire/Death spells.

Well, the ones that are out there are quality, IMO.

Scott

[Teraswaerto]

I'd love to see a nation/theme with cheap (180 gold, like Sauromancers, for example) Earth 3 mages recruitable everywhere.

[ June 09, 2004, 17:54: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ]

[PvK]

Originally posted by Bayushi Tasogare:
...
First, why are the Mahotsukai death mages? I would have thought they would be blood mages, instead. Thinking a little farther, what do you think of perhaps a Mystic analog for Blood? 3 random Elemental magic, and 2 Blood? It'd be really quite versatile for the Elemental Blood Summons, in keeping with the Mahotsukai tradition, and suitably priced (200g, perhaps?) wouldn't overshadow Mictlan.

3 random elemental plus 2 blood for 200g wouldn't overshadown Mictlan?

Without much deep thought, it seems like it would, to me.

Mictlan has no random picks on any of its mages, and the mages it does have are expensive. Compare their most powerful: 2 Fire, 3 Blood, 4 Holy, for 390 gold. No versatility, and nearly twice the cost you proposed.

Moreover, Mictlan national troops are something many players have a hard time using effectively. Norfleet suggests playing Mictlan without taking any national troops at all. Ashikaga has Samurai, which from what I've seen in these threads are (naturally) quite good troops.

PvK

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Zen:
I think we need more Earth/Water/Astral Nations!

It's annoying that the only nation that can really make easy use of crystal coins and golems is Arcoscephale.

And a few more Fire/Death spells.

What exists there is pretty nice, but also suffers from being both high level in both research and death magic.

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by PvK:
3 random elemental plus 2 blood for 200g wouldn't overshadown Mictlan?

Without much deep thought, it seems like it would, to me.

Mictlan has no random picks on any of its mages, and the mages it does have are expensive. Compare their most powerful: 2 Fire, 3 Blood, 4 Holy, for 390 gold. No versatility, and nearly twice the cost you proposed.

Yes, they are. OTOH, That's 3 Blood (the minimum needed to increase your Blood magic, a plus), 4 Holy (over 0 Holy, a plus), and Sacred (meaning less upkeep). Further, Mictlan's 'lack of versatility' has a plus side, that of knowing you get exactly what you pay for. If you want to summon, say, Devils, their Sun Priest is a one-stop answer. You could buy any number of 'Blood Mystics' before you get one capable of summoning Devils. Similar arguments can be made for Crossbreeding, Frost Fiends, and Horrors. As a final note, without a cheap Blood mage, bloodhunting would be very costly for such a nation.

So, to me, if you added a 'Blood Mystic' to a non-Blood nation, that nation would not overshadow Mictlan in Blood magic, per se.

Moreover, Mictlan national troops are something many players have a hard time using effectively. Norfleet suggests playing Mictlan without taking any national troops at all. Ashikaga has Samurai, which from what I've seen in these threads are (naturally) quite good troops.

These are also true, and should certainly be evaluated as part of 'the picture', but the samurai in Ashikaga have a disturbing weakness to missile fire. 10-12 Prot and no Shield vs. Missile fire is not very good, IMO. Luckily, their morale is high enough not to rout from such fire, but they DO take high casualties where other troops might take less.

In any event, that is my take on the situation. Maybe wrong, but time will tell, I guess.

Scott

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Bayushi Tasogare:
You could buy any number of 'Blood Mystics' before you get one capable of summoning Devils.

You need 2 of the 3 elemental picks to come up as fire for devils, which basically means that they will show up quite often.

As a final note, without a cheap Blood mage, bloodhunting would be very costly for such a nation.

Not much more expensive than Abysia, where a warlock apprentice is 170 gold, capital only, and non-sacred.

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
You need 2 of the 3 elemental picks to come up as fire for devils, which basically means that they will show up quite often.

Well, let's see the probability. I count 20 different combinations of FAWE in a configuration of 3: FEW/FAW/FAE/AWE/FFW/FFE/FFA/AAF/AAW/AAE/WWF/WWA/WWE/EEF/EEA/EEW/FFF/AAA/EEE/WWW

Of those, 4 of them have FF. That leads to a .2 probability of getting a Fire-2 'Blood Mystic'. Not _too_ often. You can expect to get a Fire-2 'Blood Mystic' every 3rd or 4th Mystic you buy. That's not 'quite often' to me. Certainly, you can expect it before too long. OTOH, there is a .327 probability that you can hire 5 and not get one. If you think a .2 probability is 'quite often', then you have to agree that a .308 probability is more than 'quite often'.

Now, if you want to talk about having a 'Blood Mystic' that has one Elemental property at 2, that's far more likely. IIRC, that gives a much better chance of summoning _some_ Elemental Demon, but that's not much different than what Mictlan can do, and Mictlan's summoners are 1) sacred, and 2) guaranteed.

There's also the question of increasing your Blood magic with 'Blood Mystics', which would require either 1) Empowerment, or 2) Your Pretender.

I still stand by my original belief that 'Blood Mystics' per se would not overshadow Mictlan.

Not much more expensive than Abysia, where a warlock apprentice is 170 gold, capital only, and non-sacred.

The Warlock Apprentice is 150, not 170. He also has Astral magic, which is unavailable to a 'Blood Mystic'. I think you might have been conflating the Warlock Apprentice's cost with that of the Warlock, which is 270.

Besides, while Abysia is supposed to be a 'Blood nation', they certainly don't do it as well as Mictlan, and if you make a mod that has a Blood nation that is on par with base Abysia, that would tend to support my belief that it wouldn't overshadow Mictlan.

Scott

[ June 09, 2004, 19:29: Message edited by: Bayushi Tasogare ]

[st.patrik]

Originally posted by Zen:
I also wouldn't mind a Earth/Blood nation.

Pangaea (regular theme) could be stretched into being a earth/blood nation - it at least has mages with both picks (not at the same time though).

[ June 09, 2004, 20:50: Message edited by: st.patrik ]