How to see whom I am at war with???

[Cainehill]

Peter Ebbesen said:
Nobody, but nobody, enjoys writing UI code* Even fewer enjoy changing it or rewriting it except in the direst circumstances with the clearest benefits.


* Counterexamples are rumoured to exist, but until an actual sighting has been made they will be assumed non-existent.

I'm fond of doing UI code myself, especially using the UI libraries I've written. One very nice thing about doing user interface is that you get instant gratification: you can immediately see the improvements you've made, or test and find that no, something you thought was a good idea wasn't really.

And, trivial amounts of work can give large amounts of user satisfaction / reward. A Dom2 example would be moving Laboratory to the top of the list of commanders in the equiping screen's list.

[Arryn]

Caine: I wholehearted agree with what you say in regards to the gratification derived from UI coding. Network coding (ick!), for example, lacks the same visceral qualities.

Another example of some UI-related Dom 2 coding that would garner vast amounts of user appreciation is the much-mentioned-and-desired ability to find which commander has what magical doohickey.

[Tuidjy]

> Nobody, but nobody, enjoys writing UI code*

Not true. Some women do. Always hire women for anything involving
user interface and presentation. I know it sounds sexist, but it
works fine as long as your team is small. But if the project grows
and you need more people, pad the team with male, junior people,
because having more than one female designer is asking for trouble.
I have seen that among programmers, mechanical designers and artists,
so I think it is one of the sexist laws of a sexist universe. :-p

[edit]

I just noticed that I failed to paint myself as racist... So I will
add that it is best when the male, junior people are young and Asian.
Hey! I did ageist as well. The sky is the limit.

[kohlerj]

kohlerj said:
The game isnt excactly new and in a serious need of patching...

I just reread that and have to admit it sounds like whining which I swear I didnt intend it to be. Thinking in one language and writing it down in an other is a bit clumsy sometimes. And to quote Geier on the BFC forum when I asked about this there, "You're not thinking like a god, baby. There is no diplomacy between us."
Couldnt have put it better actually

[Arryn]

Tuidjy said:
> Nobody, but nobody, enjoys writing UI code*

Not true. Some women do. Always hire women for anything involving
user interface and presentation. I know it sounds sexist, but it
works fine as long as your team is small. But if the project grows
and you need more people, pad the team with male, junior people,
because more than one female designer is asking for trouble.

It isn't sexist if it's true, regardless of the BS of "political correctness" and the sensibilities of naive and pampered princesses who are incapable of objectively viewing themselves and the world around them.

[Kel]

While I do hate tweaking existing code (even my own), I certainly do like doing UI work, personally (and I am not female ).

As someone else said, you can often see immediate improvements over how something works. Plus, it helps you develop something that your end user will like (rather than something you like that the end user is willing to put up with).

- Kel

[Peter Ebbesen]

Arryn said:
Assume all you want. *I* enjoy writing UI code, and have done so since the late 80s. What's more, the part of writing UI code I most enjoy is precisely that which you claim the fewest enjoy: that of tweaking existing code. Moreover, I particularly enjoy rewriting other people's (bad) UI code.

Knew that that would get a rise out of you.

Your (false) assertions are refuted.

And impressively fast too. Well, it is my own fault for not specifically limiting the class of programmers to games programmers.

Joking apart, it is my experience with games programmers that many tend to think of time writing and tweaking the UI as a necessary evil, when what they REALLY want to spend time on is having the Orc kill the Elf in a sensible fashion rather than having it running into walls, dying of starvation, or causing fatal crashes when you least expect it. Everybody acknowledges that good UI is important, but as good UI (as opposed to "sufficiently good to work") is one of the hardest things to do right (assuming you have a decent spread of target audience for the game) and a time-consuming one as well, it is common to prefer spending time on tweaking game-engine code to see immediate results than on interface enhancements that may also require designer input and new graphics and often present minimal immediate benefit to the programmer. (In sufficiently small game companies the graphics designer might also be the programmer. In that case expect peculiarities)

Which is why sufficiently large games companies hire the dedicated souls who like to do it and hand responsibility over to people who are actually good at it, dedicating their time to interface issues rather than time sharing it with game-engine or component construction, while smaller companies have to make do with local talent - and quite often suffer from it.

Dominions 2 is a good case in point. Its graphics interface, severe micromanagement tedium in the mid-to-late-game, and in many ways unresponsive interface practically screams "written by programmers for programmers (and geeks)". As such, it is to be expected that the programmers of Dominions 2 prefer to do as little UI tweaking (which can take a lot of time for little tangible benefit to their own enjoyment) while instead tweaking spells, units, items, and killing off occasional bugs.

[Arryn]

Peter Ebbesen said:
Knew that that would get a rise out of you.

And impressively fast too.

Careful, lest I set one of my fawning, yet disgruntled and reluctant minions upon thee. (I'm sure the minion in question knows of whom I speak.)

Your reasoned defense is a nice save on your part, after cramming your foot so far down your throat you must have gotten a tummy-ache.

As for geeky game designers prefering tweaks other than to UI as being more enjoyable, that's such a short-sighted attitude. It too readily dismisses the annoying tedium of having to constantly deal with awkwardnesses that rapidly detract from the overall pleasure of other aspects of a game. Inconsistent controls, missing controls (Dom's lack of arrow-key support), poorly placed controls (HoI's tiny '+' controls placed dangerously close to delete controls), controls that aren't smooth (HoI's jumping sliders), controls that require excessive clicking (transferring large amounts of items/cash in Fallout), such things quickly earn the ire of all but truly rabid fans of a game.

[Gandalf Parker]

Tuidjy said:
> Nobody, but nobody, enjoys writing UI code*

Not true. Some women do. Always hire women for anything involving user interface and presentation.

So this is.. what? The virtual Version of redecorating a room? All "these colors are exciting and these are cool so use the first for the combat screen and the second for the help menu" type of stuff? So I suppose if you cant find a female programmer, then a gay one will do?

(HEY! Back Off on the flame thrower. Im only half serious)
Gandalf Parker

[Esben Mose Hansen]

Tuidjy said:
[...]
because having more than one female designer is asking for trouble.
I have seen that among programmers, mechanical designers and artists,
so I think it is one of the sexist laws of a sexist universe. :-p
[...]

Really? "My" team included until recently four female programmers, two female designers and one few architect. Oh, and my most immediate boss is also female. We don't do much UI, though, except a few code-generated ISPF-screens for data entry and searching. I havn't noticed any problems with the female (or male) part of our team.