Cohen Mod 0.2

[Cohen]

Tujidi, I repeat.
Your opinion matter nothing to me, because you're able to play only with Air (AbUser) Magic and Clams and/or Raiding nations.

What do you play: Pythium, Caelum or Vanheim.
This is what I've to answer to you, to let people know you know only 1 way to play ... I really doubt you can understand anything about balance ... after all you were following Norfleet ideas about not nerfing stuff and such.
Well, it's so clear we've the same opinion to each other, the stuff I like more is that you comment without trying out and that you see only what it has been done to Abysya.

I know people is intelligent, someone taking Abysya will not be able to play with all those listed pretenders, and I know someone that gets the Cyclop to make cheaper Contracts, for example.
However as I said, if someone will demonstrate me that Abysya in this mod is overpowered, I'll review it.

The effective comment since now I've took in consideration is to remove the Fire Shield from G.Warlock and Moloch. (thx to Edi), leaving it to Baphomet by default instead.

[Edi]

Cohen said:
Modules could be good, but a global overview is needed IMO.

Why? If you balance certain subsets that are available to everyone equally within themselves (e.g. pretenders, or items), you don't need to tinker with everything and you can keep the consequences of modification on the game balance more controlled.

Cohen said:
I really disbelief that Abysya will become stronger, however as the mod itself says, it's 0.1. So it's far from his completeness, and I asked too to test his own balance.
Please proof your words so on testing itself.

Yes, far from complete. Try to put some thought into it, is what I ask. You can scream about Abysia not becoming overpowered with these changes, but the only one who will believe it is you.

I don't even need to run the mod, the numbers on the Moloch and the Great Warlock say it all for me. I've designed enough pretenders to be able to roughly calculate what I can get from those base stats and how to use them, and they are utterly insane.

Just provide the mod for easy download (attachment or whatever) and I'll take a look, but I'm so far not impressed at all. If I see any potential in it, I can even help you with the documentation (not a native speaker, but my English skills are as good as a native's). For me to bother with that, though, there needs to be significant improvement. As things stand now, I've promised to helping Zen out with docs, and his work has priority on both merits and prior commitment.

Cohen said:
About Moloch ... sadly there's a bugged command (#restrictedgod, that limits its use to 1 nation only and is not cumulative as explained in Modding help, but has been already reported). It should be Abysya, Mictlan and Marignon only (and I'm thinking to swith it to Marignon, since Abysya has a new brand Pretender Moloch-like). I'd like more to be able to assign Pretenders to certain Themes only, instead of to an entire Nation.

It's a shame the command is bugged, it would come in handy. The theme specific pretender thing is as I understand it, impossible. It would work if you first picked nation, then theme and only then selected pretender (would make more sense that way), but that would require (I think) a major change in the game mechanics, or at least in the mechanics of pretender generation.

Cohen said:
I've personally tested Human Pretenders, both in base and Zen mod. They'ren't worthing to get taken in both of them.

So have I, and I have not had any trouble with them. Haven't used them in multislayer games, as I've only taken part in two so far, but that does not preclude their use altogether. They require different strategies than an SC, and perhaps you are not good with those strategies. I know I'm not good at all with some strats that some people use to great effect, while I'm pretty comfortable with others. It all depends on what style of play suits you best, and from the looks of the modded Great Warlock, it seems like you would like a rainbow SC. The end result is that with the modded GW, the best options from both worlds are available without any of the weaknesses, and that just kills it, it's nothing but a humongous spoiler.

Edi

[Alneyan]

I believe you can make Pretenders available for only a couple of nations: what if you made several minor variations on the same theme? For example, Abysia would get a Demonbred, with the same stats as the Moloch, and Abysia-only, while Mictlan would get a Moloch Mictlan-only, Machaka a Fiery Spirit, and so on. It may even work without giving new names to each "individual" Pretender.

Incidentally Edi, I love this typo:

Haven't used them in multislayer games, as I've only taken part in two so far

While you have only played two such games, it looks like you have perfectly grasped the basic nature of a multiplayer game. I am not a nitpicker on such typos, but this one seems to be amusing; and some levity, even if poorly done, cannot hurt in this particular thread.

[Cohen]

Thinking to switch Moloch on Marignon.

For human pretenders, I can assure they're damn frail.
I tried a Great Warlock (and with 24 HP it isn't an SC chassis, he has great risks to get crushed by any indep, considering his combat stats aren't great and he's precision 9 by default!) with A5, F5, B3, W3 (A5 = +5 Precision, and able to cast Aim to help more, F5 to cast some more flares with quickness, A5 and F5 as base for Air Queens and Fire Kings, B3W3 needed for Ice Devils), it got crushed by a Blue Dragon with ease (even if the aimed flare hit the dragon the 2nd turn - quickness, aim, flare, flare, flare were the script - and set it aflame, the huge amount of HP of the dragon, combined with quickness and BoW allowed it to smash both infantry and pretender).

Personally I've liked more to give them some special skill (like the Great Warlock with Imps in battle, or a Blood Magic bonus, since we're talking about this. Or like an Arch Mages with a general spellcasting bonus of 10% in gem/fatigue discount to talk of something else ... but I can't do that via modding.).
Don't forget Rainbow Humans are frail, and they'll lose the most points of magic by getting killed.

The base HP of a pretender are heavily modfied by your own dominion (or enemy).
Playing in MP means if your Pretender is spotted by enemy, that he gets arrowed or something else (seeking arrows or wind ride, fires from afar, or anything you could throw at, especially if it's frail). Having 1 slot occupied with an Amulet of Missile Protection, and some immunities instead of some boosters isn't so nice.

[Edi]

Alneyan, it's no typo. I intentionally use the term "multislayer" to refer to MP games more often than not. Because, as you said, that's what they are.

Cohen, you can get Missile prot from Silver Hauberk as well, or from Shield of Valor. Your GW is no high end SC, but a more than adequate low end one when you kit it out and use it in conjunction with support troops. The fact that it got stomped by a high end SC means absolutely squat because its greatest impact will be against indeps in early game expansion. Last I checked, you don't get anything like that with indeps.

Zen's mod takes care of the rainbow pretender frailty issue, and many of your modifications are ridiculous, there is no end run around that fact.

Edi

[Cohen]

Zen Mod take care only of their frailty issue.

With almost no starting pathes or 1 as starting path, they can't be great mages ... they pay a lot of points to even get for a 0 lvl to a 4 lvl in a path! (10+16+24+32=82 pts).
They're so not suited for heavy spellcasting, nor for heavy blessing, nor for combat, and they don't provide combat skills to take out province in solo.
They're good to mixed forging and site searching (and it's damn slow, and if someone rushes you with any SC pretender type you're so dead...) so probably their usefullness reveals in a long term game ... but I'm not so sure if you take 1 province/turn (with your army) meanwhile the enemy start taking 2 provinces/turn (1 with army, 1 with pretender) thus having potentially twice of your gold and gem income, thus having more stuff/items/castles/temples and supplying his lack of magery with probably amazons, druids or good magic sites that he've found in his superior number of provinces.

Frailty here is the same in Zen mod, but they at least could excel in spellcasting or blessing (even a human pretender should be better to rely on good blessed troops/army than a powerful pretender that is strong on his own).

Don't forget the Scale change, that usually will lessen the points you can sink in your pretender magic.

[Peter Ebbesen]

While I, too, am staggered by the highpowered Moloch with his inherent fireshield 18 and his Fire 4, which makes getting a L9 Fire blessing cost only 120 instead of 168 (minimum for a L9 blessing for all other pretenders, i.e. equivalent to an entire extra scale), there is another pretender I am even more stumped by..

MASTER ALCHEMIST: Named "Arcane Blacksmith", Forge Bonus 40, Fire 2 Earth 2, HP 19, Enc 1, Prec 12, Cost 60.

Forge Bonus 40?? Add a hammer and you have 65, work at the steel ovens (if you find them) and you have 85. Forge the Hammer of the Forge Lord or kill the Cyclops (if you can get them) and you have 90. Pretty neat considering the maximum applied is 80. Time to mass produce incinerating rods, robes of invulnerability, or other quality stuff. (If, against all odds, you get FoA up, your pretender can make 80 gem items for 24 gems barehanded, 14 gems with a dwarven hammer, and 8 gems with the Hammer of the Forge Lord.)

...Of course, you would probably be better off playing a blood nation (blood Ulm or ordinary Ulm blooded) and have been forging blood contracts for (1-0.65)*80 slaves = 28 slaves per round since round 10-15 or so. A not insubstantial saving in cost. No dedicated blood nation can compete.

...Please believe me. Giving a pretender a forge bonus is giving him a massive boost in power. If done for thematic reasons (though it is not obvious why an alchemist should get such a bonus. A smith, yes, but an alchemist?), might I suggest a smaller one of 10%?

Anyhow, good luck with your mod. It is always nice to see somebody being creative, even when it appears to be of the dangerously unstable kind of creativity. Remember, so long as you have fun with your work, the more power to you: That is what is most important.

Considering other peoples criticism is only necessary if you expect to find players who will agree to play your mod in MP.

[Huzurdaddi]

Considering other peoples criticism is only necessary if you expect to find players who will agree to play your mod in MP.

How bang on is that? Nicely done.

[Cohen]

Sadly in fact I'd put that pretender to Ulm Default or Iron Faith only, but this is not feasible.
Perhaps 40 is too much, and should be down to 25 (to a master smith level), but I aimed to give Ulm a boost in forging.
True, if used by BF theme, it could be an exploit because they don't lack of the magic inflexibility of common Ulm.

This is a good statement Peter, but I'd ever doubt if I put a "house condition" that this pretender could be taken only by IF and Default Ulm will be applied.
I'll consider to reduce that forge bonus.

And yes, I aim to use my mod in MP.

[Kel]

Peter Ebbesen said:
...Please believe me. Giving a pretender a forge bonus is giving him a massive boost in power. If done for thematic reasons (though it is not obvious why an alchemist should get such a bonus. A smith, yes, but an alchemist?), might I suggest a smaller one of 10%?

Not agreeing or disagreeing with the balance of a forge bonus but, to be fair, the Conceptual Pretenders mod that Cohen used as a basis has a 25% forge bonus on the cyclops, a viable SC with built in 3E hammer building. I haven't even looked at Cohen's mod but if a 25% forge bonus on an SC is ok, a 40% forge bonus on a human wouldn't seem that much of a stretch (though it should definitely be taken into account in pretender cost).

- Kel