Balck Holes too soft

[Suicide Junkie]

Hahahahaha!

Thats a perfect example of an OJ defence

Flood them with BS till they go away!
(much of that is true, but has no bearing on the discussion)

You appear to have said that you now agree that the moon would not fall in if the earth was squeezed into a black hole (which would have an EH roughly the size of a marble, FYI)
I hope then that you would realize that anything in orbit will stay in orbit nearly forever.
Therefore ships that sensibly go into orbit around normal stars, should (with a sane captain) go into orbit around the black hole, and hence not get sucked in

Note that for our purposes, hawking radiation is minimal, since we are talking about a solar mass or higher.

quote:

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I never said the moon would fall. You can not compare the moon to man made sat.
Yet we all may be wrong to some degree or may have miss-understood some of his statments.

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The moon is easily compared to a man-mad sattelite. They both orbit the earth. The only difference is that the sat is smaller, and gets bumped around by gasses & solar wind. they still follow the same rules, and crushing the earth into a black hole would not suck any orbiting body in.

If the "him" you are referring to is S. Hawking, nothing about orbiting a black hole has anything to do with him. It is simple orbital mechanics.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 30 March 2001).]

[Dracus]

Do you or do you not want the files that change the way black holes work in the game?
If not then I will remove them.

[Nitram Draw]

A little OT but did't someone make a mod or give instructions to prevent BH from being generated in the game. I don't like them. Anyone know what the mod was called or have easy instructions on how to do it?

[Steve A]

nice quotes <grin>

There is a game explanation for the 2 moves per turn towards the center in a black hole system. The wormholes in a normal system tend to be many AU from the central stars (i.e. at the edge of the screen) and the scale of the solar system display is many AU across.
To make things work assume that wormholes are attracted to gravity gradients, so they are much closer to black holes than normal, equally massive stars. The screen scale of a black hole system would then be much less, say .1 AU across. Since you are much closer to the central mass than you would normally be, the gravitational pull would be greater. Also assume that the "space drive" engines don't have the same top velocity near a singularity, so the ships still only move 1 square per "move".
While not a pretty solution, it can explain the extra motion towards the center. The center square represents the space immediately around the event horizon which causes damage through gravitational shear and/or intense radiation from the accretion disk.

Steve

[Master Belisarius]

Nitram: I hate the Black Holes, because they are a great problem for the AI players, then, I have removed them from my games.

To do it, you only need to go into the file QuadrantTypes.txt (under the Data folder), and search the words 'Black Hole'. Then every time that you find the word (will be several times, because is for every type of quadrant), replace the Chance for 0.
If you have the Modpack installed, you need to do it into the folder Data, but under the Modpack folder.

[Suicide Junkie]

Personally, I don't need them. I've got stuff modded, so I can't use them as is.
Adjusting the black hole's ability is not exactly a full day's work, either

I'm sure that there are many who would be interested though.

My objections so far:

1) Oggy ben Doggy's statement (post #2) is only correct if the ships are not orbiting, and since they orbit normal stars (ie. don't fall in) then the captain should just be orbiting the hole.

2) Dracus (a second-hand quote, since the original post was blanked out)

quote:

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If you don't have a planet (IE earth crushed) then the sats would be pulled in, because then there would be no orbit. orbits are based on speed ver grav. That is why we have to push our sats back up, because in time, grav overpowers them. All the planets are slowly being pulled toward the sun. It will take billions of years but in time the earth will crash into our sun. Take a science math course or read a steven [Hawking] book. It is all explained there.

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Which is full of errors. You claimed that the satellites would fall in, yet you also say that the moon would not.
- Both are in orbit, both would stay in orbit
- also, the planets are not falling into the sun. In fact, the Moon is drifting away from the earth because of tidal forces.
eg: the moon pulls a bulge of water towards it (that's the tides) but the spinning earth pushes the bulge ahead of the moon. The gravitational tug from the bulge pulls the moon ahead a little bit faster, and the moon slowly accelerates, expanding its orbit, while the rotation of the earth slows (due to friction with the bulge).
The exact same thing happens with the Sun & Mercury.

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Append:

Steve A: If wou make the black hole system 0.1 AU across, then the accretion disk would be huge, rather than just 1 square of damage.
Also, it dosen't explain why the ship captain fails to go into orbit like he does for stars.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 30 March 2001).]

[Dracus]

more info on black holes
Known Black Holes Number 30
Galaxies with a big bulge of stars in the middle are much more likely to spawn a massive black
hole, while comparatively flat-bellied galaxies like our Milky Way harbor black holes with only a
few million solar masses, the scientists said in statements.
Scientists at the University of Texas, the University of California at Santa Cruz and the
University of Michigan were able to reach these conclusions because of the recent discovery of
10 super massive black holes in galaxy centers, raising the total number of known black holes to
30, a large enough group for study.
To measure the masses of black holes — huge matter-sucking drains that gobble up
everything that gets within their pull, even light — astronomers used the average speed of stars
near the black hole.
The closer the stars get to the black hole, the faster they move. The galaxies with small to
average star speeds have small black holes, while those with very high speeds contain
extremely large black holes, the astronomers found.
Copyright 2000 Reuters.



[This message has been edited by Dracus (edited 30 March 2001).]

[Nitram Draw]

Dracus,
There was an article in the Baltimore Sunpapers about 3 weeks ago. Scientists at Johns Hopkins now estimate the number of Black Holes to be ~2 million. The article quotes the scientists as saying " they are like cockroaches".

[Suicide Junkie]

quote:

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Originally posted by raynor:
If I take an object with arbitrary mass and vector, it sounds to me like you are saying that when it approaches a stellar body of planetary mass or larger, there is a 100% guarantee that said object will enter into stable orbit around the stellar body?

Fascinating...

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Noooo. I'm saying that the Captain of said object would put his ship in orbit, assuming that he's not suicidal.

The other thing that I'm saying is that anything already in orbit will not fall out of orbit just because its orbiting a black hole.

[Dracus]

I have done some more research.

There is no limit in principle to how much or how little mass a black hole can have. Any amount of mass at all can in principle be made to form a black hole if you
compress it to a high enough density. We suspect that most of the black holes that are actually out there were produced in the deaths of massive stars, and so we expect
those black holes to weigh about as much as a massive star. A typical mass for such a stellar black hole would be about 10 times the mass of the Sun, or about 10^{31}
kilograms. (Here I'm using scientific notation: 10^{31} means a 1 with 31 zeroes after it, or 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.) Astronomers also suspect that
many galaxies harbor extremely massive black holes at their centers. These are thought to weigh about a million times as much as the Sun, or 10^{36} kilograms.

The more massive a black hole is, the more space it takes up. In fact, the Schwarzschild radius (which means the radius of the horizon) and the mass are directly
proportional to one another: if one black hole weighs ten times as much as another, its radius is ten times as large. A black hole with a mass equal to that of the Sun
would have a radius of 3 kilometers. So a typical 10-solar-mass black hole would have a radius of 30 kilometers, and a million-solar-mass black hole at the center of a
galaxy would have a radius of 3 million kilometers. Three million kilometers may sound like a lot, but it's actually not so big by astronomical standards. The Sun, for
example, has a radius of about 700,000 kilometers, and so that supermassive black hole has a radius only about four times bigger than the Sun.

A black hole has a "horizon," which means a region from which you can't escape. If you cross the horizon, you're doomed to eventually hit the singularity. But
as long as you stay outside of the horizon, you can avoid getting sucked in. In fact, to someone well outside of the horizon, the gravitational field surrounding a black hole
is no different from the field surrounding any other object of the same mass. In other words, a one-solar-mass black hole is no better than any other one-solar-mass
object (such as, for example, the Sun) at "sucking in" distant objects.

A black hole in a close orbit around a star can pull the top layers of the star off the surface and
down its own gravity well. Once the material passes beyond the black hole's event horizon, it is
gone, and more stuff can be consumed by the black hole. You are left with a slightly larger black
hole, and a slightly less massive star, so the black hole can pull a little more material off the star.
This continues until the star is gone, and the black hole's hunger is yet unabated.