The Council of Wyrms

[The Panther]

quantum_mechani said:
The Wyrm may be the only pretender available for all 17 nations, but every nation has human pretenders as well.

The wyrm is non-negotiable, I am totally dead set on this. After all, the wyrm is the physically strongest pretender in the game, so why would they allow a lesser being into Council? Plus, there is always the endless arguments about what precisely constitutes a human pretender.

[The Panther]

The_Tauren13 said:
Rule 3 states that the game hosting will be delayed for council rulings. This seems silly; Im sure there will be so many proposals by mid game that it would never host, and it is already a slow game. Also, there is no real reason any given proposal cant wait a turn for the results. Therefore I would suggest taking out the clause that states the game hosting will be delayed for council votes.

I agree with this logic. In fact, without an inherent delay, you could use the game timing to decide whether to put in a proposal with less than 24 hrs to go or greater than 24 hours, depending on whether or not you want your planned opponent to be forced to make a move before a ruling is official.

[quantum_mechani]

The Panther said:

The wyrm is non-negotiable, I am totally dead set on this. After all, the wyrm is the physically strongest pretender in the game, so why would they allow a lesser being into Council? Plus, there is always the endless arguments about what precisely constitutes a human pretender.

Of course, it is your game, but because I love a good debate, here are some counterpoints:

It is a little difficult to define strongest, for instance a carrion dragon, even with no magic, would eat a wyrm for breakfast. If you define purely in terms of statistics, there are a number of pretenders such bulls, shedus or manticores that are quite comparable. If you ask me, defining the stringest is a lot fuzzier than defining human pretenders, which are pretty clearly anything with 10 pathcost.

But aside from all that I simply imagine that humans are much more apt to diplomacy, forming councils, and politics in general than wyrms.

[The Panther]

I have seen people claim werewolves are human, simply because they have 10 points per magic path. And many nations cannot get the werewolf.

I do understand your argument about us humans being the masters of diplomacy. However, I really like the general idea of a Council of powerful and mythical Wyrms making arbitrary but binding rulings. I especially like the idea that all nations can get them. For human pretenders, they are not all the same even though every nation can get one.

By the way, the wyrm IS the strongest pretender simply because it says so in it's thematic description. After all, we all know that those descriptions are gospel since they were written by God himself, right?

[quantum_mechani]

The Panther said:
I have seen people claim werewolves are human, simply because they have 10 points per magic path. And many nations cannot get the werewolf.

I do understand your argument about us humans being the masters of diplomacy. However, I really like the general idea of a Council of powerful and mythical Wyrms making arbitrary but binding rulings. I especially like the idea that all nations can get them. For human pretenders, they are not all the same even though every nation can get one.

By the way, the wyrm IS the strongest pretender simply because it says so in it's thematic description. After all, we all know that those descriptions are gospel since they were written by God himself, right?

It just says their might is awesome, and even dragons avoid them.

As for the werewolf, she is human as defined by almost every human pretender only game. Just because she can be used as an expander if you really work at it doesn't mean she would be overpowered, or even a clearcut better choice than other human pretenders for the nations that can use her.

[The Panther]

quantum_mechani said:
It just says their might is awesome, and even dragons avoid them.

Ha! You are precisely correct! I just went and reread the darn thing. Shame on the ol' Panther for relying on his aging memory.

For the Carrion Dragon, he could almost surely beat the Wyrm in a one-on-one. But this is because the Carrion Dragon is immune to the dual death poison while the Wyrm is not immune to the dual sleep vines. However, the Wyrm has better fighting stats, which makes him physically more powerful (by Panther's Personal Definition).

As for the bulls and Shedu, the Wyrm would own them both big time since the Wyrm can't be trampled and the dual death poison would hurt them really bad. The Manticore (poison immunity) would be an interesting battle. I would like to see that one.

As for the werewolf, she is not human, imho. Take a look at her stats and you will see that there is practically NO REASON to ever use the human form for her. Of course, I don't disagree that there are better human pretenders than the werewolf in many game settings and nations. I also wonder if the Freak Lord is human since the mage rides on a non-human mythical beast. The 10 magic path thing is somewhat arbitrary.

Were you, by any chance, on the debate team in high school? I should have been, for I too love a nice, amicable debate with no name calling or mud slinging.

[PashaDawg]

Hello!

I would like to join as Ulm, and I expect to be voted in as the Chairman of the Council.

The one thought I have is that the Council should not have the power to force a player to AI. That is too drastic.

Also, I assume that a player becomes a rogue nation if he/she disobeys a resolution of the Council (e.g., Vanheim shall give Caelum a dwarven hammer).

Pasha

[The Panther]

Yeah! We got Pasha Dawg. However, I do wonder if having a lawyer on the Council is a good idea or not...

As for forcing a player to AI, I see your point. However, I hate to restrict the Wyrms on anything. I see them as all-omnipotent and all-powerful on all subjects. Since forcing a player to AI is both irrecoverable and quite drastic, it should be extremely difficult to get a vote in favor. I, for one, would never vote to force a player to AI just because he is rogue and it looks like he about to win. That would be dishonorable in the extreme and not what Dominions is all about.

However, I could vote to move a player to AI (or to a forced sub if one is avaliable) because he/she has quit playing and participating in the game. We all know this happens all too frequently in these mega-MP games.

And yes, if a player disobeys the rules of the council, then they become a rogue nation. Of course, there is always the defense of, "Hey, I don't have a Dwarven Hammer myself, nor do I have the research and gems to even make one! I ask to be given 5 months in which to obey this ruling!!!"

As for the Council Chairman, this would entail the creation (or least the maintenance) of the Council Website. Did you just volunteer for that???

[quantum_mechani]

The Panther said:

Ha! You are precisely correct! I just went and reread the darn thing. Shame on the ol' Panther for relying on his aging memory.

For the Carrion Dragon, he could almost surely beat the Wyrm in a one-on-one. But this is because the Carrion Dragon is immune to the dual death poison while the Wyrm is not immune to the dual sleep vines. However, the Wyrm has better fighting stats, which makes him physically more powerful (by Panther's Personal Definition).

As for the bulls and Shedu, the Wyrm would own them both big time since the Wyrm can't be trampled and the dual death poison would hurt them really bad. The Manticore (poison immunity) would be an interesting battle. I would like to see that one.

As for the werewolf, she is not human, imho. Take a look at her stats and you will see that there is practically NO REASON to ever use the human form for her. Of course, I don't disagree that there are better human pretenders than the werewolf in many game settings and nations. I also wonder if the Freak Lord is human since the mage rides on a non-human mythical beast. The 10 magic path thing is somewhat arbitrary.

Were you, by any chance, on the debate team in high school? I should have been, for I too love a nice, amicable debate with no name calling or mud slinging.

If you want to disqualify the carrion dragon's vines as a special ability, not fighting statistics, you also have to disqualify the wyrm's poison.

If you are arguing from a purely thematic perspective, I think both the freak lord and werewolf fit in just fine as humans. One is simply a human with large pet, the other has an unfortunate illness.

Also, there is a reason to leave the werewolf in crone form, she has twice the precision that way, and for most battles not against indies, it is inadvisable to use her in melee anyway.

And no, I was never in a debate team either.

[PashaDawg]

The Panther said:
As for the Council Chairman, this would entail the creation (or least the maintenance) of the Council Website. Did you just volunteer for that???

Alas no. I have no such skills (nor the time to learn them).

Again, I would urge that the Council not have the power to banish players from the game. That is too much. To the extent a player "disappears", that should not be a matter left to the Council's discretion. (All other matters are not irrevocable.) Instead, it should be decided by a consensus of all players, just like in other games.

Making a player AI also goes against the principle that the ONLY sanction that the Council can impose is a declaration that a given nation is a "rogue."

Also, I think players will need to keep in mind that this sort of hardcore diplomacy wacked-out game will require an extra-high degree of good sportsmanship. If the council is unduly capricious, players could end up getting quite cranky and the fun would be lost. (I am almost of a mind that there should be some strict limitations to the "jurisdiction" of the council, but broad jurisdiction is probably ok as long as the Council's power is limited by its ability to impose only one kind of sanction.)

Pasha