Machaka in CB

[Cainehill]

I'm also with Saber Cherry on this one. Yes, the black hunters are expensive - but I suspect that your 5 N9E9 black hunters will actually kill your 14 spider knights, halfzware. Regeneration, and better armor / strength, and they go berserk and so won't rout. Nor will they pick up afflictions as quickly as the spider knights.

In addition, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the Hunter Lord. Prophetize one, and it's an instant, turn 3 thug, almost a mini-SC, and that's without even giving it anything like a charcoal shield or amulet or luck.

[Wick]

Gryphons don't stay after the battle. Nor do serpents, lobsters, or wolves. I can't think of anything except Giant Spiders and Hunter Spiders that do. (I'm not counting the various shapeshifters.) The others are just vengeance attacks. With Black Hunters the Hunter Spider is what you're buying.

What you're buying is almost twice the hit points of a Jotun Woodsman for 2.5 times the cost. Low strength but the poison and, especially, web makes up for it. Protection and defense are better. What you're buying is 4 times the hit points of a Knight of the Chalice while giving up 4 prot and 3 def and paying 1.39 the cost. Like any big troop they are vulnerable to masses of f9 Flagellents or Jaguar Warriors but I'd expect them to dominate an equal cost of Niefel Giants. They seem competitive.

They do tend to get afflictions since the blow that kills the rider tends to have a high damage / current HP ratio but a N9 blessing stops this.

[Saber Cherry]

Cainehill said:
In addition, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the Hunter Lord. Prophetize one, and it's an instant, turn 3 thug, almost a mini-SC, and that's without even giving it anything like a charcoal shield or amulet or luck.

I've never even considered that... a Bane Spider or 4-holy Voice is always too tempting. But it's an interesting idea, especially once your prophet turns into a dumb animal that can no longer share his revelations with the masses, but has 150 HP...

I can't remember ever having a riderless Hunter Lord. Does the mount still have leadership?

[halfzware]

You know what. In what might be an absolute first in the history of internet forums, I'm gonna admit I think I am wrong.

With an E9N9 bless, they really might be worth it. I always tested them with F9/somethingelse, but the protection bonus from berserk and the protection from e9 actually makes the second form useful - and make both survivable with regen.

[Arralen]

• Regen is based on current hitpoints. As long as we're talking about Black Hunters, not the spiders, IMHO regen is negligible @ 2HP/turn.
• Afflictions carry over, maybe with %tage.
• With F9x9 bless, you can turn every blessable unit into a killing machine. At least, if it has more than 1 attack per turn. That only shows that the fire bless is unbalanced, not that the troops are good.
• F9 bless alone does not turn the Black Hunters into fearsome killing machines: they die to fast to do real damage. And the Hunter Spider have only 1 lousy weapon ..
• N9 bless alone only makes sure the unit is ganged upon and -sooner than later- killed by the inevitable very high or critical roll on the 2D6oe. Especially, as the knight only regens 2 HP/turn and gets +2 fat/turn when berserking.
• N9E9 bless is not nearly as good as F9x9 bless, but very good nevertheless. Better on Jotun Herses than on Black Hunters, though.
• Yes, riderless hunter lords keep their leadership and experience. Dunno if they even keep their magic - guess they do @-1, because it's a 2nd, animal form. At least the other commander which can change voluntarily do.

[Cainehill]

Arralen said:
Regen is based on current hitpoints. As long as we're talking about Black Hunters, not the spiders, IMHO regen is negligible @ 2HP/turn.

True, it's not a lot of regen - but with 27 protection, they don't tend to take much damage, even with the open-ended roll. And because they go berserk, they tend not to rout, even in small numbers, often driving the opposing forces from the field after they would have routed, if not for berserk.

So - 2 regen I find is often enough, especially since, as importantly as anything, it gives 1/10 the chance of afflictions. Oh, and the E9 bless gives 4 fatigue back a turn, so they don't accumulate fatigue so quickly as to allow their protection to be halfed.

Yes, riderless hunter lords keep their leadership and experience. Dunno if they even keep their magic - guess they do @-1, because it's a 2nd, animal form. At least the other commander which can change voluntarily do.

Don't remember if they keep the magic, but definately keep leadership - my prophet stayed prophet after losing the rider, and was still leading the other spiders around. Think he still had enough holy for blessing, although I usually try to send a cheap priest to do that since the hunter lord does have spell casting encumbrance of 16.

[halfzware]

I ran a bunch of tests on black hunters over the last couple nights.

The N9 bless isn't worth it for regen on the first form, the benifit is berserk adds attack - which the hunters need as their attack rating sucks (for high end troops). Also, the berserk + e9 bless brings their armor to 27 i think, which gives them survivability against non-ap troops.

The second form also benifits from the dual bless giving them over 20 armor, and 5-6 pts of regen - which again... makes them worth it.

If you use them in packs of 5 or more, they are imo actually worth it, as they're capable of handling groups of 15 knights solo (with support they should keep their casualties and afflictions low enough to make it worth while).

[PrinzMegaherz]

I find it actually kind of strange that the black hunters do not spread fear. Actually, I can't imagine something that is more terrifying than a huge hairy spider.

[Ironhawk]

Cainehill said:
I'm also with Saber Cherry on this one. Yes, the black hunters are expensive - but I suspect that your 5 N9E9 black hunters will actually kill your 14 spider knights, halfzware. Regeneration, and better armor / strength, and they go berserk and so won't rout. Nor will they pick up afflictions as quickly as the spider knights.

I have to disagree with everyone who is promoting the Black Hunters as a bless platform. While I will certainly not debate that a N9E9 (or other heavy bless) spider is quite formidable, the truth is that you simply cant deploy enough of them to have an effect. In the early game, sure you will do tons of damage. But in the mid or late game? Forget it - your spiders are WAY too juicy of a target for mages not to slaughter. A handful of Magma Bolts into a formation of black hunters and - oh my!! you just lost 350gp worth of units, so sorry! Or any of the one-shot one-kill spells like Soul Slay or Paralyze? They frequently target the largest units. Not to mention that un-mounted Hunters have horrendous MR.

No, Black Hunters are just not worth it. Any benefit you might gain in the early game will rapidly erode as the game progresses. And then you will be left in mid/late game with bad scales and a blessable unit you can no longer use.

[Morkilus]

Check out all the spider-love in this thread.