tcp/ip Net Play For Space Empires IV

[Will]

quote:

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Originally posted by rodo:
it's a must to urgently implement TCP/IP facility in a next patch ! I hope that the guys from malfador are working on it ...

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Quick note: Last I heard, Malfador Machinations has two employee/owners, and only one (Aaron) does any game programming. So even if it is true that there are "guys" at Malfador, only one "guy" can do anything about TCP/IP. Anyone know how long it took the Quake or Diablo programming teams to add in TCP/IP support? I'm sure it would take much longer for a lone programmer.

I understand what everyone is saying about TCP/IP, I have played games over the internet with both TCP/IP and PbEM, and PbEM is a bit tedious if you don't stay on top of all participants to get the turns in on time. Real-time game connections (or at least automated turn retrieval/dispersal and tactical combat over the 'net) would be an awesome feature for SEIV. However, with current resources and current priorities, it will have to wait. I'm just being realistic here (and maybe a bit pessimistic, but oh well).

Until then, stay on top of those players, use and help develop the tools made by fans, make what you have work. Aaron has always listened to players' suggestions (when an e-mail list was set up to discuss what SEIV should be like, early in development, Aaron wanted to drop Tactical Combat (!) in favor of Strategic only). Usually he will implement them, sometimes he won't. All of us will just have to wait.

[Magus38]

quote:

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Originally posted by Will:

Aaron has always listened to players' suggestions (when an e-mail list was set up to discuss what SEIV should be like, early in development, Aaron wanted to drop Tactical Combat (!) in favor of Strategic only). Usually he will implement them, sometimes he won't. All of us will just have to wait.

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AAAHHH!!! Drop tactical combat!! One of the reasons I find PBEM taxing is because of the lack of tactical combat. While I understand how difficult a thing this is to implement it would be an absolute dream to have full TCP/IP support, including potential multiplayer presence in tactical combat... Whoohoo!

[dogscoff]

If malador implement tcp/ip perhaps they should add a little sub-game at the same time, to keep players occupied while they wait for others to finish tactical.

How about Dreadnought Tetris, or a simple single/ multi-player card game. (using race styles & shipsets as deck pictures for the cardsets=-)
I wonder if they could rip off that cool card game in Final Fantasy [BIG NUMBER] without getting into too much copyright trouble. Imagine if gambling of game items was implemented according to the outcome of card games...

Emporer DeathGargle: My turn... I play the Ten of Phong.
Prsident S'zh'Kurn: Ha! Ace of Xiati - I win, the De'elta system is mine, Mine, MINE!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Emporer DeathGargle: Damn. Another Game? Double or nothing...

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"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so, Brain, but if they called them sad meals, kids wouldn't buy them.
"

[geoschmo]

Here's an email I sent to Aaron and his response. I'll post it with no attempt at interpretation...

quote:

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On Wed, 9 May 2001, George Perley wrote:> Aaron,>
> There have been many requests in the shrappnel forums for tcp/ip support for multi-player SEIV. Are there any plans for the near or long term to implement this? George Perley

We're hoping to add in for a future patch. But it all depends on if we can
fit in around our other projects. Aaron--------------------------------------
Malfador MachinationsPO Box 471885San Francisco, CA 94147-1885
Phone: (415) 281-9971Email: info@malfador.com Web: www.malfador.com

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[MasterDave]

I have stated before and still believe that it is the lack of a TC/IP (or another network protocol) style multiplayer game that is preventing SE IV from becoming one of those "great" strategy games which can hold my attention for years at a time. New and tougher AI's and race pictures are keeping the game somewhat interesting, but without the foreseeable opportunity to take on real live human opponents over the net, I can feel my interest in this game waning. Europa Universalis is starting to replace SE IV for me, as that game does offer the opportunity to take on other humans now (or after I have practiced playing different nations to the point where I feel ready).

Moo2 was a great example of a game that had the ability to suck me in and stay fun for a long,long time. Beating its AI on impossible became pretty routine after a couple weeks playing the game, but overcoming the devious tactical, economic, diplomatic (..."ok, it's time we all gang up on MasterDave, hehe..."), and sheer creativity of other human players is what really kept that game interesting for me for a very long time. I played in a Kali league for over two years until Everquest finally came along and dominated my on-line life (or lack of life depending on your perspective) for a solid 20 months (ouch).

SE IV has the potential with its amazing depth of technologies, types of weapons, races, etc. to be a fascinating game against human opponents. However, an email game with one turn a day just does not seem like it would be all that much fun, and would probably take half a year to even having a chance of getting finished. Hotseat might be ok, but the game is far too long without simultaneous movement. It would probably take multiple sessions over a network to finish a game WITH simultaneous moves, but so did Moo2 if you had four or five players. Strategic combat would probably be needed to keep the game moving, but it would still be a great game without the tactical combat.

Anyway, I plan to stick with SE IV at least for part of my gaming time, in the hopes that TC/IP will eventually get implemented. If not, Moo3 will hopefully be released in a year or so...


MasterDave
Former Psilon Emperor and official Ringer for the Trilarans

[This message has been edited by MasterDave (edited 11 May 2001).]

[geoschmo]

quote:

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AAAHHH!!! Drop tactical combat!! One of the reasons I find PBEM taxing is because of the lack of tactical combat. While I understand how difficult a thing this is to implement it would be an absolute dream to have full TCP/IP support, including potential multiplayer presence in tactical combat... Whoohoo!

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I think tcp/ip multi-player tactical combat would be very cool (and very playable) for 1 on 1 games. But one of the best things about SEIV is that you can get into a game with 6, 10, or even more players and have a gigantic game.

People are saying they don't like PBEM because they can't "see anything happening" and they lose interest. How much are you going to see happening while 2 or 3 of your fellow players are duking it out in tactical tcp/ip combat for 25 minutes on the other side of the quadrant? Maybe in addition to tcp/ip and tactical multi-player Malfador needs to add an option to view combat that is going on that doesn't involve your race? Otherwise all your friends that can't get motivated to maintain a "slow" PBEM game are going to be off somewhere else playing Quake.

I am not opposed at all to Malfador implementing Tcp/ip as soon as possible. I was just making the comment that those that are waiting on it are missing out on one of the best parts of Space Empires.

Of course this is just one "Grognard's" opinion.

Geo

[Devnullicus]

Hey there, MasterDave, I remember you from my MOO2 days =) I used to be pretty active in that community for a while, but that was while TEN was still around. Anyway, I totally agree with you about human vs human. MOO2 was a good game, but would have been shelved a LONG time before it was if it weren't for the fact that I could play and trounce (and be trounced by...) other humans. That made that game go on my list of all-time favorite games.

If SE4 would add the ability to play vs humans via tcp/ip (even if if was strategic combat only), that would make the game just be incredible for me. And I think it would make the game Last a LOT longer on people's computers =)

(PS - I shared your EQ addiction for a while (10 months or so), then moved on to Asheron's Call (another 18 months or so). *sigh*. Glad to have a life again -- I feel like a human being again instead of a virtual person =) ).

[LazarusLong42]

Hrm. I tend to like the PBEM/PBW paradigm, myself. Perhaps this is because I simply don't have time to sit around playing games for hours on end, and play a couple of games, one turn a day, fits much better into my schedule--and that of, I suspect a lot of the people who play SE4, namely people with jobs and wives and houses and so forth.

Perhaps on a weekend day I could get through ten or fifteen turns of simultaneous play (in the midgame, I tend to take upwards of half an hour to run my turns even against the AI). But I'd just as well spread that out over the course of a week, playing six to ten turns over the week. But sitting Online waiting for turns to come back... doesn't strike me as very exciting. Nor does sitting waiting for tactical combat.

Perhaps SE4 will never have the following of Starcraft or Quake, but then SE4 is a much more complicated game, and let's face it: you average 15-year-old l33t h4x0r type who spends ten hours a day playing games wants to play something with constant action--not something where you might, in a long game, even have written notes about what you're doing to keep track of things in your Empire.

Personally, I'll take the small, dedicated community of professional types over a hundred thousand script kiddies any day.

LL

[MasterDave]

Laz,

Keep in mind that we are not talking about a zero-sum game here. If Malfador were to implement TC/IP, it would not mean the end of PBEM. I can definitely see how that would be a better format for someone who lacks the time or willingness to play a game for hours at a time. Many of the Kali Moo2 gang were adults (at least I am) with full-time jobs, and families/girlfriends to keep happy. We were still able to find time (a few hours on a weeknight or longer during a weekend) to play multi-session games. The quake kiddies for the most part do not have the patience for a turn-based strategy epic like Moo2 or SE4 anyway.

In a network setting, I would hope that people would keep their turns down to five minutes or so during the mid-game (quicker early) in order to keep the game moving. PBEM is probably a better option for the more methodical/perfectionist types who want to attend to every detail every turn. Against the AI, I usually take about 3-5 minutes per turn, but occasionally have that "monster turn" with ship designing, colony queuing, building atmosphere converters, etc which can Last as much as half an hour. In a network setting, people would probably have to better learn to spread these activities over several turns to save time. Tactical combat would probably be something only used in a two-player game only, so players three, four, and five are not kept waiting. Even in Moo2, which generally had far fewer ships in a battle, waiting for tactical combat in a game with more than two people was the biggest "bummer" (although with the chat feature we could plot and scheme against the two players in the battle while they were fighting).

I still feel that TC/IP is the only major element missing from this game. If Malfador adds that, then SE IV can become truly great in the minds of more of its current fans.



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Follow the Golden Rule:
"He who has the Gold makes the rules.."

[geoschmo]

I agree that tcp/ip will be a very nice feature once it is implemented. It definitly has it's place. That is one of the best things about SEIV is it's ability for varying styles of play.

Both PBEM and tcp/ip have advantages and disadvantages and depending on your point of view you may lean towards one or the other.

However, I would like to encourage anyone waiting for tcp/ip support to check out Admiral's Play by Web server. http://seiv.admiral.com

It is the ultimate in convience in PBEM and you may find it a more than adequate substitute while you wait for tcp/ip to be implimented.

All turn processing is automatic. You can get together with a friend, or 5 or 10 and set up a game on the PBW server. As soon as the Last player uploads their .plr file, which is done via webpage interface, the server kicks off the next .gam file and emails it to everyone in the game.

In my experience the new turn hits my email box within a minute after the Last player uploads their player file. This is about as close to realtime as you can get with PBEM, and not much slower than tcp/ip is going to be.

No it's not totally automatic as tcp/ip I guess will be. You do have to upload your player file. And you have to open the game turn once it hits your email box, but that's it as far as game mechanics. Everything else is automatic, even for the player who set the game up.

No, you don't have tactical combat. That is not supported for multiplayer SEIV except in a hotseat game. If that is a deal breaker for you, then PBW isn't for you. Although I will be mildly suprised if tcp/ip has that feature either.

And there is a communication lag in PBEM. If you send a message to another empire in turn 3, you won't get his response until turn 5, because he gets it in turn 4. I like that though. It gives me the feeling that I am sending message to someone light years away. Others don't like it though.

You and your friends could stay Online and burn through turns as fast as you can play them. Nothing slow about PBEM when its done via the PBW server.

Just a suggestion. Hope to see you all in a game sometime.

Geo