German ranks

[narwan]

Unfortunately that's not exactly true about the origins of the SS, although many of the more basic books do mention it like that. It's simpler than the truth and serves to give a SS an even more sinister reputation.

But the original role for the SS was the protection of Hitler, especially during the putsch of Munich in 1923. The name SS (Schutz Staffel) does translate into 'body guards' and that was exactly what they were meant to be, much like modern day bodyguards protecting 'important' people.
While the SA was declared illegal after said putsch, the SS was very small and overlooked by the authorities which gave it time to grow, but not much. When soon after the SA was reformed, the infighting between SS and SA resulted in the effective end of the SA as a player.

In the years after two separate parts emerged, the SS-VT (VerfugungsTruppe) and SS-TV(TotenkopfVerbande). The VT were the 'fighting' arm, which included the Leibstandarte regiment (later 1st SS division) and the Das Reich (which was initally called the SS-VT division and became the 2nd SS division) for example. These continued the original role of the SS in guarding it's leaders and is the part which became the 'Waffen-SS' early in the war. Initial recruitment standards for the VT were higher than for the TV.

The TV units were responsible for guarding concentration camps and other police duties (in occupied areas). There was some interchange of personel between TV and VT but not much. Some of these TV units were later 'merged' to form the Totenkopf division. By the time of Barbarossa the TV and VT distinction had effectively ceased to exist.
If I remember correctly the concentration camp duties were taken over by the Allgemeine SS, with waffen-ss men serving short periods as guards, usually after recovering from wounds, after leave or awaiting permanent assignment to a (new) field unit.

So the 1st and 2nd SS division were NOT formed from concentration camp guards but the 3rd ss division was (although only about half the troops came from guarding the camps). Some soldiers from the 1st, 2nd and other divisions did serve short terms as guards but that was later in the war, after their formation as divisional units.

The SS Polizei division was never really part of the SS. It was formed from police units in late 39 and meant to serve in occupied areas as a 'militarised' police force. As the SS was claiming the right to police the occupied area's the division was later given SS status. The bulk of it's men were not members of the SS however and they did not wear SS insigna but police badges and signs. The were NOT formed from any SS police force but from the regular police.

Finally, the Wiking division was initially formed from foreign recruits (dutch and danish especially) with a cadre of experienced german soldiers. So not not by german volunteers.

Narwan

[narwan]

On the SS surrendering, don't forget that while the SS initially recruited only volunteers and even then only the best of those, not only did these standards drop during the war, at a certain point it became common that draftees were enlisted in the SS. Many of the waffen-ss units did not have the great fighting reputation that the big well-known formations had. Even so, when the 2nd SS Das Reich went to Normandy in '44 it was in southern france reconstituting. Many of the new recruits that had to be fitted in were not just draftees, they were draftees from Elzas and Lorraine! After the fall of france germany had claimed these as part of the german homeland. So it wasn't considered occupied but part of germany proper. So it's inhabitants were drafted too. Ddin't matter that the vast majority considered themselves to be french (even though they spoke a german dialect). In fact, many draftees from these regions were deliberately put into SS units as they would be less likely to desert (they were supposed to go to the eastern front and the common attitude of the russians towards anyone in an SS uniform was rather harsh...).

So when the 2nd SS, a reputable formation, went to action in Normandy, they had a load of 'french' draftees that didn't want to be there and who were barely incorporated into the parent units. The desertion and surrender rate during the first weeks of action was rather high as you can imagine.

Narwan

[chuckfourth]

Hi Narwan
On the Geneology of the SS my source gives this.
SS 'Leibstandarte' (hitlers body gaurd).
SS Verfugungstruppen (SS-VT) formed, each unit raised to battalion strength, "exclusively at the disposal of the Fuhrer for special tasks during peace and war" these were the 'aryan' crew.
By 1939 we have 3 SS-VT regiments 'Deutschland', 'Germania' and 'Der Fuhrer'.
Paralell with the SS-VT were the Totenkopffverbande, in 1937 they constituted 3 regiments, 'Oberbayern', 'Brandenburg', 'Thuringen', 'Ostmark' added after Austria was annexed.
After the Polish campaign the 3 SS-VT regiments were reformed into the Verfugungdivision. Leibstandarte becomes a fully motorised infantry regiment. Totenkopf division raised from the best of the Totenkopffverbande
SS Polizei Division raised. you are correct from "normal" police.
SS regiment Nordland formed from Danish and Swedish volunteers.
SS regiment Westland recruited from Holland and Belgium.
These two regiments were merged with the Germania SS-VT becoming the 'Germania' Division and then 'Wiking' division.
Verfugungdivision renamed 'Das Reich' Division.
5th and 6th Totenkopf regiments become Kampfgruppe Nord
8th and 10th Totenkopf regiments becomes the 1st SS Motor brigade.
4th and 14th Totenkopf regiments becomes the 2nd SS Motor brigade.
SS cavalry regiments formed.

True the SS were origionally Hitlers Body guard but it soon grew way past this role. Dont forget the SS owned and ran the camps and the inmates and because of the shortage of manpower these inmates became a precious industrial resource. The SS charged a fee for their use and through this became very rich. Because the SS insisted the inmates had to be worked to death there was now an economic imperitive to collect more inmates guilty or not. Pretty sinister Organisation no?

[chuckfourth]

Hi Narwan
Dont forget Alsace-Lorrane was part of germany 1871 to 1914. The area has over history been part of France, part of Germany and independant.

The desertion and surrender rate during the first weeks of action was rather high as you can imagine

Id be interested in the source for this and what quite high is as a percentage.
Best Regards Chuck.

[narwan]

The SS was a murky organisation at all times with many different levels and suborganisations. All the above don't even go into the different levels and taks of the Allgemeine SS. But still, the ORIGINAL task for the SS was VIP protection.

A good example for the confusion is the VT units. Some of these were merged into a SS-VT division which has caused some historians to refer to these exclusively as VT troops while others include all the SS 'combat' troops (including the Leibstandarte). This latter seems to be the correct use as for example service in the VT became equivalent for fulfilling the militairy service with the armed forces as early as 1936, long before the formation of the division.

The nuances of the VT aren't terribly relevant though while that between the VT and TV is. They had different recruitment criteria, training and organisation. TV service didn't count for militairy service either as the army considered this a 'police' organisation.

There were in fact 5 TV verbände (each about battallion strength) in october 1939 when the Theodor Eicke, Inspector general for the concentration camps gained permission to organise an SS field division too (note that he was in charge of the TV part, NOT the VT part of the SS and it seems he wanted his own little army too). These verbände were No1 Oberbayern, No2 Elbe, No3 Sachsen, No4 Ostfriesland and No5 Brandenburg, based at Dachau, Sachsenhausen, Frankenberg, Buchenwald and Mauthausen respectively. About 6500 out of a total of 7400 TV troops were assigned to the division (so over 80% of all TV troops which can hardly qualify as the 'best' of the TV). Experienced officers from the VT were transfered in and the combat experienced former TV standarte Götze added (that had started out as a unit meant to conduct 'police' operations in the danzig area on the heels of the german armed forces but it had ended up in the front lines itself fighting the polish armed forces).
Still service in the division was not considered militairy service (until the first half of 1940) and they held on to the lower recruitment standards compared to the VT units.

The SS standarten Nordland (Danes and Norwegians, not Swedes) and Westland were in fact only battallions when they were merged with the Germanina regiment from the VT division to form a second VT division (which did become the Wiking division) but the did become regiment sized later on.

I have no idea what to make of this:
"5th and 6th Totenkopf regiments become Kampfgruppe Nord
8th and 10th Totenkopf regiments becomes the 1st SS Motor brigade.
4th and 14th Totenkopf regiments becomes the 2nd SS Motor brigade.
SS cavalry regiments formed."

What year are these referring too?

And as to the high percentage of desertions, I'd have to dig up some specific numbers, but from my head these were high for normal german standards, not to mention the normal figures for SS units.

Sources for the origins of the SS divisions is Bruce Quarries 'Hitler Teutonic Knights' and for the Das Reich in frnace 44 is Max Hastings 'Das Reich; the march of the 2nd ss panzer division through france, june 1944'.

[narwan]

In some families int the Elzas and Lorraine one generation fought with the french army in 1870-71, the next with the germans in 1914, the next to that with the french in 1940 and then their sons again with the germans in 1944!

[narwan]

Here's a list of all formed Waffen SS 'divisions':


1.SS-Panzer-Division - "Leibstandarte-SS Adolf Hitler"
2.SS-Panzer-Division - "Das Reich" (also "Verfügungstruppe", "Deutschland", "Reich")
3.SS-Panzer-Division - "Totenkopf"
4.SS-Polizei-Panzergrenadier-Division - "SS-Polizei-Division"
5.SS-Panzer-Division - "Wiking" (also "Germania")
6.SS-Gebirgsjäger-Division - "Nord"
7.SS-Freiwilligen-Gebirgsjäger-Division - "Prinz Eugen"
8.SS-Kavallerie-Division - "Florian Geyer"
9.SS-Panzer-Division - "Hohenstaufen"
10.SS-Panzer-Division - "Frundsberg" (also "Karl der Große")
11.SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division - "Nordland"
12.SS-Panzer-Division - "Hitlerjugend"
13.Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Division der SS (kroatische Nr.1) - "Handschar"
14.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (galizische / ukrainische Nr.1) - "Galizien"
15.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (lettische Nr.1) - "Lettland"
16.SS-Panzergrenadier-Division - "Reichsführer-SS"
17.SS-Panzergrenadier-Division - "Götz von Berlichingen"
18.SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division "Horst Wessel"
19.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (lettische Nr.2) - "Latvia"
20.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (estnische Nr.1) - "Estland"
21.Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Division der SS (albanische Nr.1) - "Skanderbeg"
22.SS-Freiwilligen-Kavallerie-Division - "Maria Theresa" (ungarische)
23.SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division (niederländische Nr.1) - "Nederland"
23.Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Division der SS (kroatische Nr.2) - "Kama"
24.Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Division der SS - "Karstjäger"
25.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (ungarische Nr.1) - "Hunyadi"
26.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (ungarische Nr.2) - "Hungaria" (also "Gömbös")
27.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division (flämische Nr.1) - "Langemarck"
28.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division - "Wallonien" (wallonische)
29.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (italienische Nr.1) - "Italien"
29.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (rußische Nr.1) (also "R.O.N.A.")
30.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (rußische Nr.2)
30.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (weißruthenische Nr.1) - "Weißruthenien"
31.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division - "Batschka" (also "Kukuruz", "Lombard")
32.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division - "30.Januar"
33.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (französische Nr.1) - "Charlemagne"
33.Waffen-Kavallerie-Division der SS (ungarische Nr.3)
34.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division - "Landstorm Nederland" (niederländische Nr.2)
35.SS-Polizei-Grenadier-Division - "SS-Polizei-Division II"
36.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS - "Dirlewanger"
37.SS-Freiwilligen-Kavallerie-Division - "Lützow"
38.SS-Grenadier-Division - "Nibelungen" (also "Junkerschule")

SS-Grenadier-Division - "Neu Turkistan"
SS-Panzer-Division - "Tannenberg"
Kampfgruppe-Division - "Böhmen-Mähren"


I think there are enough units in there of dubious quality so as not to have a 'no surrender' rule for SS units.

Narwan

[wulfir]

chuckfourth said:
SS regiment Nordland formed from Danish and Swedish volunteers.

hmm..., it was primarily Danes and Norwegians that were targeted for the creation of Nordland, though I would think the vast majority of the manpower were Germans. At the time of Barbarossa Division Wiking was staffed by Germans (about 90%). In 1942 the Finnish III/Nordland was added.

The number of Swedes in the Waffen SS are sometimes said to be in the range of 500, but there is little, if any, support for this figure. By adding all that could possible be considered "Swedish" - we're talking about estonians etc of Swedish decent or Germans who moved to Sweden after the war - you'll get a figure of about 200. It has been possible to confirm about 180 Swedes in German service, of those about 100 got anywhere near the frontlines.

Sidenote:

Regiment Nordland was later expanded to Division size, but the bulk of the troops were ethnic Germans (Volksdeutsche) from what today is Romania.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Narwan
"What year are these referring too"
Well it seems to be 1939. So these units maybe appear in the invasion of France. I had assumed that these units had gone on to form 1st and 2nd SS divisions, maybe they were included in these divisions later, I dont know. They seem to be what happened to the 20% of TV that didnt get into the Totenkopf division but at 2 brigades and 2 regiments 20% seems a little low. The two SS cavalry regiments were formed from "independent cavalry units, cycle units, and horse artillery elements".
Best Regards Chuck

[chuckfourth]

Hi Narwan
Well if all these were full sized divisions the Germans may have held the russians for an extra year and ended up being nuked.
For instance.
33.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (französische Nr.1) - "Charlemagne" This Division was little more than a brigade
It was formed in the last 2 months of the war and made up form the remains of 33rd Waffen Cavalry Division wich had been destroyed at Budepest. The French element was one regiment and one Brigade
27.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division (flämische Nr.1) - "Langemarck" This division again brigade size.
These below seem to be pretty typical of the poorly performing "SS" Divisions.
13.Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Division der SS (kroatische Nr.1) - "Handschar" Formed 1943 Mutineed during training brutalised yugoslavian civilians was disbanded and reformed as a mountain regiment.
21.Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Division der SS (albanische Nr.1) - "Skanderbeg" and
23.Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Division der SS (kroatische Nr.2) - "Kama"
Both had such high desertion rates they were disbanded.
But then we have,
14.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (galizische / ukrainische Nr.1) - "Galizien" Wiped out in the Brody-Tarnov pocket.
15.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (lettische Nr.1) - "Lettland" fought to the death in Berlin.
33.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (französische Nr.1) - "Charlemagne" fought to the death in Berlin
28.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division - "Wallonien" (wallonische) Wiped out on the Order 1945

So yes there were SS 'divisions' that were a "joke" but these seem to be way under strength, didnt last long and didnt do much. Most of these paper divisions seemed to have been used in police actions and had little if any opportunities to surrender in any case. The Nazis organised a SS division for every country they occupied to pretend that Europe was united in a crusade against Bolshevism" and these are usually the substandard units you refer to. They are more for propaganda purposes than fighting.
From a second source that plagurises the first.
"Perhaps the most crucial of these fire brigade battles was the containment of the British and Canadians at Cean in June July 1944 where the seven Waffen SS divisions fought themselves to virtual destruction."
Im not sure here but these appear to be

1.SS-Panzer-Division - "Leibstandarte-SS Adolf Hitler"
2.SS-Panzer-Division - "Das Reich" (also "Verfügungstruppe", "Deutschland", "Reich")
3.SS-Panzer-Division - "Totenkopf"
9.SS-Panzer-Division - "Hohenstaufen"
10.SS-Panzer-Division - "Frundsberg" (also "Karl der Große")
12.SS-Panzer-Division - "Hitlerjugend"
17.SS-Panzergrenadier-Division - "Götz von Berlichingen"

For game purposes I think that most players are thinking they are buying men form units such as these when they buy SS not from one of the small shortlived substandard units.
So maybe "no surrender"?
Looking at the diversity of the SS maybe there is a opportunity here to give it its own OOB like the Marines?
Best Regards Chuck.