German ranks

[narwan]

Unfortunately that's not exactly true about the origins of the SS, although many of the more basic books do mention it like that. It's simpler than the truth and serves to give a SS an even more sinister reputation.

But the original role for the SS was the protection of Hitler, especially during the putsch of Munich in 1923. The name SS (Schutz Staffel) does translate into 'body guards' and that was exactly what they were meant to be, much like modern day bodyguards protecting 'important' people.
While the SA was declared illegal after said putsch, the SS was very small and overlooked by the authorities which gave it time to grow, but not much. When soon after the SA was reformed, the infighting between SS and SA resulted in the effective end of the SA as a player.

In the years after two separate parts emerged, the SS-VT (VerfugungsTruppe) and SS-TV(TotenkopfVerbande). The VT were the 'fighting' arm, which included the Leibstandarte regiment (later 1st SS division) and the Das Reich (which was initally called the SS-VT division and became the 2nd SS division) for example. These continued the original role of the SS in guarding it's leaders and is the part which became the 'Waffen-SS' early in the war. Initial recruitment standards for the VT were higher than for the TV.

The TV units were responsible for guarding concentration camps and other police duties (in occupied areas). There was some interchange of personel between TV and VT but not much. Some of these TV units were later 'merged' to form the Totenkopf division. By the time of Barbarossa the TV and VT distinction had effectively ceased to exist.
If I remember correctly the concentration camp duties were taken over by the Allgemeine SS, with waffen-ss men serving short periods as guards, usually after recovering from wounds, after leave or awaiting permanent assignment to a (new) field unit.

So the 1st and 2nd SS division were NOT formed from concentration camp guards but the 3rd ss division was (although only about half the troops came from guarding the camps). Some soldiers from the 1st, 2nd and other divisions did serve short terms as guards but that was later in the war, after their formation as divisional units.

The SS Polizei division was never really part of the SS. It was formed from police units in late 39 and meant to serve in occupied areas as a 'militarised' police force. As the SS was claiming the right to police the occupied area's the division was later given SS status. The bulk of it's men were not members of the SS however and they did not wear SS insigna but police badges and signs. The were NOT formed from any SS police force but from the regular police.

Finally, the Wiking division was initially formed from foreign recruits (dutch and danish especially) with a cadre of experienced german soldiers. So not not by german volunteers.

Narwan

[narwan]

On the SS surrendering, don't forget that while the SS initially recruited only volunteers and even then only the best of those, not only did these standards drop during the war, at a certain point it became common that draftees were enlisted in the SS. Many of the waffen-ss units did not have the great fighting reputation that the big well-known formations had. Even so, when the 2nd SS Das Reich went to Normandy in '44 it was in southern france reconstituting. Many of the new recruits that had to be fitted in were not just draftees, they were draftees from Elzas and Lorraine! After the fall of france germany had claimed these as part of the german homeland. So it wasn't considered occupied but part of germany proper. So it's inhabitants were drafted too. Ddin't matter that the vast majority considered themselves to be french (even though they spoke a german dialect). In fact, many draftees from these regions were deliberately put into SS units as they would be less likely to desert (they were supposed to go to the eastern front and the common attitude of the russians towards anyone in an SS uniform was rather harsh...).

So when the 2nd SS, a reputable formation, went to action in Normandy, they had a load of 'french' draftees that didn't want to be there and who were barely incorporated into the parent units. The desertion and surrender rate during the first weeks of action was rather high as you can imagine.

Narwan

[chuckfourth]

Hi Narwan
On the Geneology of the SS my source gives this.
SS 'Leibstandarte' (hitlers body gaurd).
SS Verfugungstruppen (SS-VT) formed, each unit raised to battalion strength, "exclusively at the disposal of the Fuhrer for special tasks during peace and war" these were the 'aryan' crew.
By 1939 we have 3 SS-VT regiments 'Deutschland', 'Germania' and 'Der Fuhrer'.
Paralell with the SS-VT were the Totenkopffverbande, in 1937 they constituted 3 regiments, 'Oberbayern', 'Brandenburg', 'Thuringen', 'Ostmark' added after Austria was annexed.
After the Polish campaign the 3 SS-VT regiments were reformed into the Verfugungdivision. Leibstandarte becomes a fully motorised infantry regiment. Totenkopf division raised from the best of the Totenkopffverbande
SS Polizei Division raised. you are correct from "normal" police.
SS regiment Nordland formed from Danish and Swedish volunteers.
SS regiment Westland recruited from Holland and Belgium.
These two regiments were merged with the Germania SS-VT becoming the 'Germania' Division and then 'Wiking' division.
Verfugungdivision renamed 'Das Reich' Division.
5th and 6th Totenkopf regiments become Kampfgruppe Nord
8th and 10th Totenkopf regiments becomes the 1st SS Motor brigade.
4th and 14th Totenkopf regiments becomes the 2nd SS Motor brigade.
SS cavalry regiments formed.

True the SS were origionally Hitlers Body guard but it soon grew way past this role. Dont forget the SS owned and ran the camps and the inmates and because of the shortage of manpower these inmates became a precious industrial resource. The SS charged a fee for their use and through this became very rich. Because the SS insisted the inmates had to be worked to death there was now an economic imperitive to collect more inmates guilty or not. Pretty sinister Organisation no?

[Palle]

Cast a powerful necromancy spell to reply to the question that was directed at me.

First I got to say though that reading through this made me understand why it says "Banned User" at Chuck's name and as a historian by profession I doubt he will ever get to review any Ph.D Thesis.


Anyway, why do I think it cool that the Waffen SS gets its own unit rooster?
-In addition to the replies already made by Pat and Narwan (I think it was). I am also in fact a historian; I do believe that there is no such thing as too much accuracy. I also believe the Luftwaffe rooster, etc are cool. Though I am divided on the issue of a seperate OOB for the Waffen SS; the sheer size of it and the variety of its units would warrant one, and they did get new equipment before and in larger quantities than their Heer colleagues, but on the other hand their equipment was the same as the Heer (if newer and more numerous) and in many battles SS and Heer fought side by side, so they should be able to in scenarios.
-The accuracy point being such an intrinsic part of what I am, I must also admit to a fascination of elite units. I was myself taught to always try to improve and excell, so their mentality is one I understand. And the achievements of the Waffen SS are hard to deny- if only they had not also had that sinister side... but they did, it was part of what made them. I also myself (being sadly too nearsighted for service in the Danish Jægerkorps or the 2e REP as I planned when I was 18), served with the Danish Home Guard SEP (today called SSR), and trained with the LOPKESKS, Jægers, Frømænd and SAS. So I have a soft place for elites. People who has read my other posts elsewhere will also know my liking for The Legion, Marines, Airborne, French Paras, UK Marines and SAS, Gurkhas, Sikhs, etc, etc.

That being said, I am a historian and with one grandfather in the Danish resistance and one serving as slave labourer, you need fear no Nazi sympathies from me. I personally think Neonazis contemptible lowlifes, but also pity their ignorance and frustration.

Sorry for the Necro, but I felt I had to reply. I could not originally as ... there were some pretty bad trouble in my life that almost cost me my life.

A late merry XMas here as well.