Mirror image (and glamour) does not protect units

[Morkilus]

DrPraetorious said:
It means that you are strongly encouraged to purchase cheap militia as screening troops (or serf warriors) and run them like dogs before your main army.

So you mean the glamour nations will have to operate like everyone else now?

This is a good fix, and makes glamour work the way you would expect.

[HoneyBadger]

It's definitely a big change. A good change? definitely!

Ideally-concerning the "missles breaking glamour" question: I think it should be range-based. Like, at greater than 30 simulated yards an arrow can hit and do damage but doesn't break the glamour, while at less than 30 simulated yards it does. That way, you can't take away all of Helheim's edge in a battle immediately, just by massing longbows.

I think it's important to leave them an "out" of this nature, just because it encourages a careful strategy when using them or fighting against them, rather than simply punishing them for having been too powerful for too long.

As per the resource cost for light scale-mail: I'd just like to have a few (too many) words on that, a bit off-topic, though it may be.

If you want to increase the resource-cost for light scale-mail, that's fine, I don't have a problem with that, but please, please, please! If you're going to do that, please give scale-mail of comparable quality a significant protection bonus over chainmail. Scale-mail is just better. High quality scale-mail is a LOT better.

The only "expert" who ever thought any differently was, apparently, Gary Gygax, and this is a sad, misguided, pitiful remnant of D&D and before that, Tolkien, and before that, the western world's psychological superiority complex, furthered by the kind of wishful thinkers who wanted to believe chainmail-which they viewed as European, was better than scalemail-which they viewed as Middle-Eastern. It is, indeed, a conspiracy!

Yes, I am very much a scale mail FANATIC.
But, atleast, I'm on the side of the facts.

If you still don't agree about scalemail, consider that a suit of scalemail armour can incorporate chainmail mesh into the design-for added flexibility and increased protection over vulnerable spots-and still be scalemail armour.

If you're still not convinced...well...you wouldn't want me to come to your house and pass out flyers, now, would you?

[VedalkenBear]

Badger: Could you provide some _reasons_ as to why it's better? I don't disagree with you, but your post gives no reason as to why it's better.

[Dedas]

I can see where this is going...

[BigDisAwesome]

Straight outta the ole PHB.

Scale Mail +4 armor +3 max dex -4 armor check penalty

Chain Mail +5 armor +2 max dex -5 armor check penalty

So there you have it, scale mail is lighter and better for quick, nimble people. Chain mail is heavier and better for no so quick people.

[Dedas]

Don't chain me to chain when I'm scaled for scale.

[Edi]

Scale mail is better because when well made, it provides equal protection for less weight than chain mail and actually better protection against bludgeoning weapons. Chain mail can actually exacerbate bludgeoning injuries with the links driven into flesh and worsening the damage.

Secondly, scale mail provides far better weight distribution, meaning it is less cumbersome for the same weight and easier to move in. Some stat adjustment would indeed be in order.

It is also a historical fact that plate armors were less cumbersome than chain mail, since they also provide the same better weight distribution and are no halfway as cumbersome as most role playing game systems, especially D&D, would lead you to believe. Unless of course we're talking about tournament plate, which is a chapter in and of itself, far heavier and primarily intended to prevent accidental fatalities. It was never used on the battlefield due to the incredible weight.

[HoneyBadger]

The PHB is wrong. Very, very wrong-deceitfully wrong-which is why I mentioned Gary Gygax. He's one of the two original inventors of Dungeons & Dragons. Here are some of the reasons, from another post I wrote:

"I think it's hilarious how scale mail is so often interpreted as having been somehow inferior to chainmail. It wasn't-infact it was a good deal better, since you've got overlapping *plates* of metal protecting your vitals, instead of a fine metal mesh.

Chain was cheaper to produce and repair-especially poor quality chain, but the only type that was-maybe, arguably- as good as scalemail, protection-wise, was high quality double-chain, which put two layers of chainmail on you, which ofcourse was nice and heavy.

And in any case, scalemail of comparable quality would have distributed it's weight across the body more comfortably, and it simply was easier to create lighter versions of scalemail than it was chainmail, because the quality of steel could be regularly higher in a plate than a wire, in a midieval forge. The only real advantage a suit of chain armor has over scale is a slight increase to flexibility, but their are ways around this, and the factor would still be small."

Here's an experiment you can try at home: Take a piece of modern, high-quality stainless steel wire. Bend it into a bunch of rough circles-as many as you feel like making-and hook the circles together. Stab at it repeatedly with a steak-knife. Now, do the same with a pile of like 10 dollars worth of U.S. nickels all piled together. See the difference? I bet your wife will when she notices what you've done to the coffee-table.

(Disclaimer: No, this is NOT a good idea, and I don't recommend you try it at home. Infact, don't. I'm just saying it's possible to try, but I won't be responsible for any injuries to you, others, antique furniture, and so forth, so don't sue me, I don't have any money, or any possessions, I don't have a real name, and I don't live anywhere.)

To continue,

Very simply: chain has gaps. It's one layer of interconnected wires with air in the middle. Scale doesn't have gaps, it's got overlapping plates. Layers of them. Those plates are also hand-forged. You can't really forge a wire as well as you can a plate, because a wire has quite a bit less surface area. It just doesn't work as well-atleast not by putting in the same amount of time in a smithy.

Scale is heavier than chain. It's more flexible than a breastplate-and quite probably offers better protection against certain impacts-like maces and clubs-because it's got lots of moving parts, and it can be used to cover more of the body than a single large plate can-because the scales are small, but it is somewhat less flexible than chainmail.

It's definitely-hands down, every single time-better protection.

[HoneyBadger]

Edi, you're right, by the way.

Those chain links made for nice impact-shrapnel when you get hit with a spiked ball-and-chain or a crossbow bolt. And we're talking the days before modern battlefield medicine.

The problem isn't completely insurmountable though-a lot of chainmaille armour was backed with leather, which would catch most or all of the little links before they could puncture your liver or an artery, but unfortunately, that does cut down on flexibility-again, not the same with scale.

Chain's also relatively harder to clean and keep rust-free than scale.

[lch]

thejeff said:
Magic I can understand, but missiles seem odd.

Roleplaying-wise, I am on the same side. A spell should "know" where it has to strike and shouldn't be fooled by magical illusions if set out to hit a target. Mundane archers with bows, however, should be fooled over long distances just like melee fighters over short distances.

Balance-wise, this gives a very strong counter to the "overpowered" glamor, though, together with the added resources that those units will require. I hope they didn't make them even more gold-expensive aswell, though?