End Game Slaughter Moves

[Twan]

If the mist combo is clearly a huge exploit that should result in the ban of the user, I don't think being in the shortlist is a sufficient condition to be one.

There are actually too many things in the "short" list to make the use of all of them bannable.

Some theorical "exploits" are unavoidable without special micro-gestion (ie : communion slaves casting spells) and knowing how to use them is now part of many strategy guides (retro-communion).

As well casting a BE then retreating, when the combat ends normally (no mist) would probably be tolerated by most players (it's just saving a mage after all). And it may also be unavoidable in some cases (ritual of returning, or the mage failing a morale check).

The politic about some that may be seen as national advantages of some nations / units isn't clear either (things like twiceborn on demons are probably used by some players with particular nations but I never seen complaints about their immortal demons in MP threads). I personnally consider this one so powerful I'd include it in the bannable category (in case of systematic use with nations like Lanka) but not sure how the majority of MP players consider this kind of "niche" exploits.

So, perhaps a list of clearly forbidden things in MP should be made, separated from the general bugs list.

[Zeldor]

That's surely a cheat and there is practically nothing you can about it. You should mention that in the game thread and talk with game host. If player repeats that he should be banned from that game. IF host think it is valid move then you know which games to avoid [and you know that host just found a new tactic he will also use next time, probably even build his nation strategy next time].

[CUnknown]

Yeah, cast and run is fine (even still I hope they change it), but it is fine for now.

But Mists of Deception is just plain sick and wrong!

DonCorazon, I feel your pain. The same thing happened to me, except with Wrathful Skies as the damage-dealer. It was maddening. It is not your fault, there is nothing that can be done to stop it. It's just an exploit that needs to be fixed.

[kasnavada]

Cast and run isn't fine either, otherwise it wouldn't be on the bug shortlist...

[triqui]

So, perhaps a list of clearly forbidden things in MP should be made, separated from the general bugs list.

That would be a nice thing, yes

[Zeldor]

DonCorazon:

Well, you need 1 sections with rules that you must obey ['do not exploit bugs' + list] and a list of definitions of common things [NAPs here, also words like thug, SC, etc.].

[thejeff]

A shortlist of exploits generally considered forbidden would be good, though I suspect there'd be much debate over what got included.

I'd rather not see NAP rules formalized, though. Maybe a clear statement that different people interpret NAP differently, so you should spell out what you mean.
Anything that reduces diplomacy further towards: "NAP-3?", "k" is a bad thing.
I'd much rather encourage a little more roleplaying and actual negotiation instead.

[Baalz]

There's been a couple attempts at such, but as I mentioned the mist of deception exploit is unique (as far as I know) in that nobody really disagrees that it is a game breaking exploit synonymous with cheating. There's a fairly large camp (including me) who feel like generally quirks in the game are fair play. There was an exceedingly long discussion about this like a year ago but it boils down to:

1) What's an exploit? Lots of interesting things in this game seem to be possibly unintentional ways things interact.
2) We're playing the game as delivered, not some abstract perfect concept even if we could agree on what that is. Everything from archer screens to vengeance of the dead spamming to the way communion mechanics work *is* part of the game.
3) Strategy is always about being clever to avoid fair fights. Why is it "fair" to bring cavalry against your enemies archers, but not "fair" to copy Bogus' scripts? Is it "fair" to mind hunt a nation with no astral mages? Etc. etc.
4) With the exception of the aforementioned Mists of Deception I'm unaware of any exploits which are as powerful as things you can unequivocally do in game such as casting the forge of the ancients or being the first one to construction-8.

As for a standardized NAP, same problem again, no consensus as to what that means.

[DonCorazon]

1. No consensus but at least with a least you can choose to join a game based on rules. And I think there is some common sense involved.

2. Agree, archer screens and skelly spams seem fine based on common sense - these are things that are just effective tactical plays

3. Fairness is not necessarily the deciding factor. Getting mind hunted is fine, even though it is killing me. Now that I know to expect it, I can find ways to deal with it. Same thing with calvary with archers - that is just why it sucked to be an archer in medieval times. But scripting rules (something I don't even know how to do, nor have any desire to learn) seems clearly wrong - it is a strange technical move akin to hacking the game. Maybe its just me but the line does not seem so hard to draw, and again, at least with a list the host can select what rules they think make sense.

4. I guess every game has some strategy that is more powerful than others, that is just unavoidable. Hopefully there are tradeoffs though, so that by gunning for Con 8 you run the risk someone else gets there first or your early game is limited by lack of magic diversity.

[DonCorazon]

triqui said:

Not playing with bug exploiting players is an easy solution

Not true. Only if there was a list of said players, which there isn't and will never be. After 6 months of playing Dom3 I have a mental list of about 3 players to avoid, mostly for going AI and vanishing. And that is out of how many players? There is just no way to know a head of time unless you just pick a group of friends and always play with the same people.