PaK 97/38

[DRG]

OK, I did my seach by unit name and should have checked by weapon name. I'll put this on the list

There are three additional nations that appear to use it as well and in some cases it's highly questionable they would have them so this will all be reviewed before the next patch. Czechoslovakia is a good example. It exists in the Czech OOB two years before production started in Germany..... the "good news" is the reason there are only AP rounds available for it is because HEAT ammo didn't exist in 1939

As for production numbers remember that there were large stocks of French and Polish AP captured that would never show up as production and the Germans were unlikely to deprive their own troops of HEAT so it is more than likely a lot of that captured AP went to their allies and the HEAT was kept for German guns though, in reality, this is a very minor weapon in the big scheme of things

Don

[sturmovik]

As for production numbers remember that there were large stocks of French and Polish AP captured that would never show up as production and the Germans were unlikely to deprive their own troops of HEAT so it is more than likely a lot of that captured AP went to their allies and the HEAT was kept for German guns though, in reality, this is a very minor weapon in the big scheme of things.

I was hoping that the community would have some information as to who used what ammunition and when. The Finish PaK 97's appear to have had their own locally produced solid shot AP, but I would find it highly likely that the eastern front collation partners would have received excess German HEAT rounds once the Germans traded in the Pak 97's for Pak 40's. The Italians, Hungarians and Romanians were all in the same theater so it stands to reason that ammunition would have been provided as well as guns. Also keep in mind that the HEAT round had a lower muzzle energy which would have been a plus on the overly light gun carriage and the high ammo burn rate involved with hitting tanks mentioned by cbo would have put pressure on the stocks of captured ammunition.

While the Pak 97/38 may not have been as well known as some of the other weapons 3,700 were produced which is no insignificant number so its worth trying to get the figures right.

Oh, I also forgot about the Pz.740(r), would is a Pak 97 mounted on a T-26 chassis.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by sturmovik

Oh, I also forgot about the Pz.740(r), would is a Pak 97 mounted on a T-26 chassis.

There are 23 open slots left in the German OOB. That is not going to increase. However ,I will but this on the list and consider it even though only 10 were produced as an experiment.

If anyone actually finds a photo of a Pak 97 mounted on a T-26 chassis please share( nevermind..... I found one )
Don

[cbo]

Originally Posted by sturmovik

While the Pak 97/38 may not have been as well known as some of the other weapons 3,700 were produced which is no insignificant number so its worth trying to get the figures right.

The standard German anti-tank guns like the 3,7cm PaK 35/36, 5cm PaK 38 and 7,5cm PaK 40 aside, the PaK 97/38 was probably the most numerous in terms of production of all the German anti-tank guns.

I was hoping that the community would have some information as to who used what ammunition and when. The Finish PaK 97's appear to have had their own locally produced solid shot AP, but I would find it highly likely that the eastern front collation partners would have received excess German HEAT rounds once the Germans traded in the Pak 97's for Pak 40's.

Are you sure they ever traded them in? Considering the European Gun Bazar that was the Wehrmacht with its Soviet, Czech, French and whatnot guns, the PaK 97/38 was not such a bad deal. And there were still anti-tank units in Normandy in 1944 armed with 5cm anti-tank guns. Clearly, some PaK 97/38 were sold off to allies, but I'd be surprised if the Germans did not retain the bulk of the guns and used them up in combat.

cbo

[DRG]

Originally Posted by cbo

The standard German anti-tank guns like the 3,7cm PaK 35/36, 5cm PaK 38 and 7,5cm PaK 40 aside, the PaK 97/38 was probably the most numerous in terms of production of all the German anti-tank guns.

cbo

OK, let me put it another way keeping in mind this is a game

In mid 1942 why would a player buy a Pak 97/38 when he can buy a Pak 40 unless he was

a/ a masochist
b/ a detail freak
c/ on a tight points "budget"
d/ all of the above

?

Also, we allow this weapon into the game 11/41. You and I both know Claus that there will ALWAYS be a source that disagrees with some other source and you also know we do our best to sort that out or, when doubt exists, compromise. Wikipedia ( NEVER a source to be relied on without back up, ) claims the 7.5 cm Pak 97/38 "reached the battlefield in the summer of 1942". Hogg only says the gun was produced to fill the gap until the PaK 40 could be supplied in numbers and the impetus to create the gun was the result of trying to deal with heavy Soviet tanks in the late summer of 1941 so we may be too generous in our 11/41 introduction. If it doesn't show up until after the PaK 40 then--- IN GAME TERMS,---- it's not something a player would deliberately buy unless they were handicapping themselves or building a scenario so from that perspective it's not a significant weapon although to gunners at the front who had a choice between it and a 3.7cm gun it wins hands down but not, as I say, in a game environment when better weapons can be had ( but at a higher cost )The Russian 7.62cm PaK 36r is more expensive in game terms than the 97/38 and cheaper than the PaK 40 but it's AP pen is almost as good as the Pak 40 and it's available almost at the same time as the 97/38 AND it's AP pen exceeds the HEAT pen of the 97/38 by 33% given that the 97/38 becomes almost a "neverpick" item

That said we both know that we could debate these dates forever and eventually someone will come along and say it's wrong. That's the nature of wargamers

Don

[cbo]

Originally Posted by DRG

Just corroborating the notion that the PaK 97/38 was a pretty common weapon in the German Army - not suggesting what you should do with it in the game......

In mid 1942 why would a player buy a Pak 97/38 when he can buy a Pak 40 unless he was

a/ a masochist
b/ a detail freak
c/ on a tight points "budget"
d/ all of the above

?

Since you ask. You sort of answered it yourself further down - to play a historical scenario/game where this gun was used.

Also, we allow this weapon into the game 11/41. You and I both know Claus that there will ALWAYS be a source that disagrees with some other source and you also know we do our best to sort that out or, when doubt exists, compromise.

Sure - but what exactly have I done to fuel this particular statement of well know facts?

I'm not telling you how to design your game, what units you should put in it, or how you should modify data. I'm hardly playing it these days. I'd just thought I'd throw in bit of historical data on the subject as that is my primary interest here - the history, not the game.

cbo

[DRG]

Originally Posted by cbo

Sure - but what exactly have I done to fuel this particular statement of well know facts?

I'm not telling you how to design your game, what units you should put in it, or how you should modify data. I'm hardly playing it these days. I'd just thought I'd throw in bit of historical data on the subject as that is my primary interest here - the history, not the game.

cbo

Just stating the obvious for everyone's benefit Claus. Sort of a "devils advocate" These are not "well know facts" for everyone and not everyone understands that sometimes we have to bend reality to fit the game



Don

[sturmovik]

OK, let me put it another way keeping in mind this is a game

In mid 1942 why would a player buy a Pak 97/38 when he can buy a Pak 40 unless he was

a/ a masochist
b/ a detail freak
c/ on a tight points "budget"
d/ all of the above

I don't know about you, but some people DO play the game for the scenarios and enjoy seeing how to fight and win real historic battles. The encyclopedia is also a pretty handy reference. I know we live in the age of Wikiepdia, but the SP OB files are one of the better databases that are synthesized from multiple sources.

Even if in the sort of "free choice" unit buying system the game uses favors the high quality weapons, just having the potpourri of captured foreign units in the OB's taught me just how hard up German was for equipment due to its poor mobilization efforts prior to 1943.

Anyway, at least for my own information is there a consensus on the distribution of HEAT ammunition for the Pak 97/38 in various Axis armies?

[redcoat2]

The Polish book Wydawnictwo Militaria 258: Panzerabwehr Artillerie (publ. 2006) features a table that shows ammunition production for German anti-tank guns during WW2 – including the Pak 97/38:



The ‘HL’ refers to HEAT. ‘SpGr’ is HE. I think the ‘PzGr 40’ is AP.¹ Using these definitions the total production of ammunition for the Pak 97/38 was 2,812,700 HE, 2,581,900 HEAT and 1,394,100 AP. The HEAT figures match those quoted by cbo.

I doubt whether the Germans palmed off all of their AP rounds to their allies. The captured technical data sheet I posted earlier shows that they were using them in the Summer of 1944.

¹ The Polish book describes the Pak 97/38 ‘PzGr’ round as ‘przeciwpancerne’ – which I think roughly translates as ‘anti-tank’.

[cbo]

Originally Posted by redcoat2

The Polish book Wydawnictwo Militaria 258: Panzerabwehr Artillerie (publ. 2006) features a table that shows ammunition production for German anti-tank guns during WW2 – including the Pak 97/38:



The ‘HL’ refers to HEAT. ‘SpGr’ is HE. I think the ‘PzGr 40’ is AP.¹.

PzGr 40 usually means a subcaliber HVAP-type round, which sounds rather odd for this weapon - nor have I ever read anything about subcaliber ammunition being used with this gun.
There was a PzGr 40 W (Weicheisen) round, which was a full caliber AP round made of soft steel and had quite low penetration but did a lot of damage due to spalling and plugging. May have made a bit more sense for this gun, but I have never seen any refences to that either.

Also, the fact that some 400.000 were made in 1944, when few, if any PzGr 40 were made due to tungsten shortages also suggest that there is something fishy with those figures.

I doubt whether the Germans palmed off all of their AP rounds to their allies. The captured technical data sheet I posted earlier shows that they were using them in the Summer of 1944.

I wouldn't put too much faith in those "technical sheets" - they were put together by the German ministry of armaments in an attempt at making a complete catalogue of German weaponry in 1944 and it also lists obsolete stuff and ammunition and weapons that were only available in small numbers.
These sheets also contain their share of errors.

I got the complete catalogue as published by the German Waffen-Journal many years ago.

cbo